this post was submitted on 27 Dec 2025
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Murdered by Words

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Responses that completely destroy the original argument in a way that leaves little to no room for reply - a targeted, well-placed response to another person, organization, or group of people.

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Can you define woman? (lemmy.zip)
submitted 3 weeks ago by BoycottTwitter@lemmy.zip to c/murderedbywords@feddit.uk
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[–] minnow@lemmy.world 64 points 3 weeks ago (5 children)

Here's the thing: there's a real answer to that question.

What makes a trans woman a woman is her brain has developed as a woman's brain. This development is set in progress while still in utero, and can become apparent as the relevant parts of the brain develop later. This is why many tabs people report realizing they were the opposite gender between the ages of 3 and 8.

Here are a number of studies that show the biological reality of transgender people. It’s important to note that although some of these studies suggest causation (ie, HOW a person is born transgender) we can’t know if there’s more than one cause, and therefore using any one test to see if somebody is “biologically trans” is impossible.

Sex vs Gender and the role of the SRY gene specifically (as opposed to the Y chromosome generally) in the development of each, as well as the possible role of AR (androgen receptor) gene https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6505576/

A correlation is found between AR allele repeat length and a person being transgender https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3402034/

The brains of trans people more closely resemble those of their chosen gender identity than their natal sex https://www.ese-hormones.org/media/1506/transgender-brains-are-more-like-their-desired-gender-from-an-early-age.pdf

A trans person's brain more closely resembles their chosen gender as demonstrated by their brain's response to olfactory stimulation with androstadienone https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fendo.2014.00060/full

Estrogen signaling pathways identified which tell the brain to develop as one gender or the other, as well as mechanisms by which physical development can happen in one way while brain development can happen in the other https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-53500-y

Cornell University summarizes 72 studies regarding the effect of gender transition on transgender well-being (with links to all 72 studies) https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people/

[–] Padit@feddit.org 14 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (3 children)

But just to be sure that i understand you correctly: you say its complicated, but you have no way to tell what a woman is, beyond (honest) self description?

Edit: thanks for all the comments guys. I am still not really sure what to make out of the individual points, but just that we have a forum to exchange ideas feels so much like what the internet is meant to be.

[–] TaTTe@lemmy.world 34 points 3 weeks ago

The whole man/woman categorization is a social construct trying to simplify something incredibly complex. Sometimes the simplification works better (with typical cisgender people) and sometimes it really doesn't describe the underlying complexities well (with transgender/intersex/etc).

[–] Macchi_the_Slime@piefed.blahaj.zone 8 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Short version: There's no way to define "woman" using so-called "objective facts" such that you include all cisgender women while excluding all transgender women.

[–] Feathercrown@lemmy.world 8 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

This is actually a general problem with strict definitions. See also the sandwich question. Definitions are in reality built more on consensus than rigor.

[–] minnow@lemmy.world 5 points 3 weeks ago (5 children)

No, I'm saying that the lack of any particular medical criteria can't be used to invalidate anybody who genuinely identifies as transgender.

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[–] naeap@sopuli.xyz 7 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (4 children)

Isn't that a pretty dangerous argument?

I don't see any difference between male and female ability in regards to intelligence.
Saying that their brain develops differently seems like an invitation to the argument, that women aren't mentally able to do the stuff men do.

And I'm a cis-male - but I want to have every individual to live free regarding to their own will.
What do I care what you do in your bedroom and with whom or how anyone there identifies?

Propaganda for "traditional" baby-bearing systems are usually fascist and prepare for war, because they need more people to die at the front.

How can anybody be interested what I'm fucking doing with myself or my partner?
It's just my/our personal thing and it should be of no one's interest.

Else, where do we stop?
Should we make anal sex illegal, because we need babys?

Fuck all this shitheads trying to influence everybodies lives, just because everyone should live the same life as they do

Ok, got maybe a bit of topic, but I'm a bit picky, when it comes to differences between male and female brain development - and in the end capacity

[–] Feathercrown@lemmy.world 10 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

I don’t see any difference between male and female ability in regards to intelligence. Saying that their brain develops differently seems like an invitation to the argument, that women aren’t mentally able to do the stuff men do.

This is a pretty slippery-slope-ish argument. Brains have plenty of differences that don't have anything to do with general intelligence. There's a lot going on in there.

[–] NotANumber@lemmy.dbzer0.com 6 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

It's not just general intelligence that people discriminate on. For example it might be decided that emotional intelligence is what's important, and that therefore one gender must be superior because they have more. It could be aggression or resilience. There are lots of reasons why people think that men or women are better besides general intelligence. So saying that there are any biological differences becomes something that either misandry or misogyny can exploit.

[–] Feathercrown@lemmy.world 5 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

It may be exploitable, but it's also the truth, and I prefer to be accurate. People can twist any truth to support bad policies or opinions; it's the twisting that's the problem, not the truth. But yes, we should be careful to try and prevent people from abusing these notions to further their negative agendas.

[–] Lumelore@lemmy.blahaj.zone 8 points 3 weeks ago

The brain differences are extremely minor and as far as I understand it, the brain differences aren't exclusive either.

This is a study I read a while back. I just skimmed it because I don't have time to reread it right now, but it looks at brains as a mosiac instead of being on a continuum.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0149763420306540

[–] minnow@lemmy.world 7 points 3 weeks ago

I'm not super familiar with what specific aspects of the brain are different between men and women, but the fact remains that there are differences at least in the manner in which the brain processes certain input related to sex & gender, as well as the cortical homunculus (which I suspect is probably the area of greatest contrast and even that's pretty minimal).

Science has also looked at the question about difference in ability and found that there's no statistically difference in the brain's ability between men and women. So no, this isn't a dangerous question that's going to lead to a slippery slope of claiming that women are less able than men. That claim was already being made and has already been investigated and debunked.

[–] vga@sopuli.xyz 4 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

I don’t see any difference between male and female ability in regards to intelligence. Saying that their brain develops differently seems like an invitation to the argument, that women aren’t mentally able to do the stuff men do.

Pretty much every group of people will have slight differences in pretty much every area, if you look closely enough. So it makes sense that the most divisive biological things we have as a species (like biological sex) are going to yield some differences.

[–] Ephera@lemmy.ml 6 points 3 weeks ago

Genuinely thought for a moment, you were referring to scientists as "many-tabs people"...

[–] WorldsDumbestMan@lemmy.today 3 points 3 weeks ago

TL;DR evolution made them a woman, but fucked up along the way, leaving them miserable.

Nature is one cruel mistress, isn't she?

Which is why climate change is not such a bad thing. Humans have a chance to redeem themselves, the rest of life does not.

[–] Flax_vert@feddit.uk 3 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Don't people refer to this as "transmedicalism" or "truscum"? In addition, why do many transgender people act more similarly to their agab? (Eg, some trans women act like men, some trans men act like women)

[–] minnow@lemmy.world 10 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

No, transmedicalism is the belief that somebody isn't actually trans unless they meet certain medical criteria. I'm saying the opposite: that the lack of any particular medical criteria can't be used to invalidate somebody being trans.

As for your second question, how a person behaves is a matter of nurture more than nature, but it's also deeply engrained from a very early age. Even those trans people who put the effort in to overcoming this socialization can have old habits they struggle to get rid of.

[–] Flax_vert@feddit.uk 3 points 3 weeks ago

That's interesting

[–] Elgenzay@lemmy.ml 19 points 3 weeks ago

Version I prefer is they're the ones who cover their drinks around you

[–] Macchi_the_Slime@piefed.blahaj.zone 18 points 3 weeks ago

TIL: I'm a woman.

Dang this knowledge would have made that gender crisis I had in high school so much simpler...

[–] Clent@lemmy.dbzer0.com 9 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

It is quite weird how no one is concerned if a trans man is a man. I can only imagine it is a sexual attraction hang up. Which is especially suspect when it's a person in a monogamous relationship asking these questions because it literally should never matter.

[–] Tonava@sopuli.xyz 7 points 3 weeks ago

It's patriarchy also. It's seen as "normal" to want to be a man; who wouldn't want to be a regular person? But if someone wants to be a woman, they're essentially breaking the system since who would want to be a lesser thing??!

[–] Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In@lemmy.world 4 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

Ever been to an event where the line for the women's restroom is so long they start using the men's?

Men care much less about who use their designated areas. Those types of arguments usually fall under obvious sexism e.g. women must go to the [with]drawing room after dinner.

TERFs certainly exist but you don't hear much about TERMs.

[–] qevlarr@lemmy.world 4 points 3 weeks ago

Whenever there's a big line, I'll remind the people in line of this. We don't care. Internalized sexism keeps them stuck in line

[–] sukhmel@programming.dev 2 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

I also met women who explained this to be because of fear for their safety, that they don't want to be around men in the toilet (or anywhere in private).

I find that maybe an overreaction, but I'm not a woman to be sure

[–] Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In@lemmy.world 3 points 3 weeks ago

It is certainly a damaging overreaction. That (imaginary) brush is tarring every Trans person.

[–] Lushed_Lungfish@lemmy.ca 9 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

A featherless biped?

[–] Jankatarch@lemmy.world 5 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

Funny enough a chicken with feathers plucked also works this time. They would have to find a rooster instead.

[–] Earthman_Jim@lemmy.zip 9 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (2 children)

I really want to ask a christian if god has a penis, and if so, why? And if god does not have a penis, does that mean he is not a man? Why?

[–] Entertainmeonly@lemmy.blahaj.zone 6 points 3 weeks ago

They'll deflect with a mysterious ways garbage retort. Like playing chess with a pigeon.

[–] Rhoeri@lemmy.world 4 points 3 weeks ago

They’ll come up with some nonsense about god being above all that shit, and then when you press, they’ll say you wouldn’t understand.

[–] Kolanaki@pawb.social 4 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

What changes?

Their pronouns.

[–] apotheotic@beehaw.org 4 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Not necessarily I suppose. Technically nothing wrong with a trans woman who uses he/him pronouns exclusively, though it would be quite strange

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[–] IAmNorRealTakeYourMeds@lemmy.world 2 points 3 weeks ago

yes, but I won't

[–] Rhoeri@lemmy.world 2 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

I’m pretty sure no trans would either.

[–] Hupf@feddit.org 2 points 3 weeks ago

That's the point.

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[–] Apocalypteroid@feddit.uk 2 points 2 weeks ago

Well, she's all you'd ever want She's the kind they'd like to flaunt and take to dinner Well, she always knows her place She's got style, she's got grace, she's a winner