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284

Gas Stoves Account For More Than Half of Some Americans’ Exposure to a Known Toxin, New Research Concludes (insideclimatenews.org)

submitted 4 days ago by silence7@slrpnk.net to c/news@lemmy.world

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[–] NuXCOM_90Percent@lemmy.zip 72 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (3 children)

Technology Connections has a great video or three on the subject. People very much underestimate just how much "bad stuff" is given off from burning gas indoors.

And from an anecdotal perspective? I am of Chinese descent and cook with a wok probably 3-4 times a week. I grew up on a shitty resistive heat stove. I have stayed in apartments with gas and with modern resistive heat. I now have an induction stove.

Induction is, hands down, the fastest for boiling water by a very large margin. And I can cook in the summer with minimal worries about making the house way too hot. Don't get me wrong, gas is fun as hell and I actually ended up getting an outdoor propane burner for the big/fancy wok nights. But there is a lot to be said about people perceiving gas to be a lot more powerful than it is just because it looks powerful.

As for resistive? It is definitely a step down. But... not that much of a step down. Mostly it just maths out to when I turn on the stove. For gas or induction it is a minute or so before I plan to cook. For resistive? Usually when I have maybe one more bit of veg left to prep. As for stir fries? it just means I cook in smaller batches which you generally should be doing anyway unless you have a full industrial kitchen stove (or said outdoor burner). And... you probably still want to because most people (self included) just aren't coordinated enough to handle a full blown meal and all the positioning to avoid burning or overcooking stuff over the course of a minute or three of actual cook time.

But if you think that consumer grade gas stove is giving you "wok hei"?

Wok hei is something that is almost exclusively about very regional street food and is not actually what you or the white guy you watched on youtube think it is
Your home stove does not provide anywhere near enough heat or open flames to pull that off
your home stove ALSO doesn't have enough to keep a wok fully "charged" with heat. And what you think is "lack of wok hei" is actually just you overcrowding the pan and steaming things in soggy oil rather than rapidly pan frying it

[–] partial_accumen@lemmy.world 32 points 4 days ago (1 children)

actually just you overcrowding the pan and steaming things in soggy oil rather than rapidly pan frying it

Why do you have to call me out like that?! I thought we were friends!

[–] NuXCOM_90Percent@lemmy.zip 12 points 4 days ago (1 children)

The good news is that is super easy to remedy.

I will never understand why people will buy twenty tiny bowls so they can properly mise en place every single ingredient before they even look at the stove. But ask them to just get a big serving bowl and keep the components of a stir fry in there after you cook them but before you mix everything together with the sauce? It is like pulling teeth.

[–] partial_accumen@lemmy.world 8 points 4 days ago (1 children)

The good news is that is super easy to remedy.

I have to learn the basics of stir-fry first! :) I'm a pretty basic cook, but haven't really tried my hand at stir-fry.

I really appreciate you sharing your knowledge on the wok cooking though, and I didn't know about the specifics behind wok hei, though I always love that flavor from restaurants.

However, sautéed green beans in cast iron on an induction stove is one of my go-to dishes at home. What I make is NOT 四季荳! I have to go to a restaurant for that lovely dish! There was another thread here on Lemmy we were talking about induction cooking and I had taken some picture that last time I made my green beans. You're absolutely right on my overcrowding:

And after looking up your comment about wok hei temperatures starting at about 260°C and going as high as 371°C, you're also absolutely right my regular methods are nowhere near that (but until your post I didn't know about wok hei specifics). I used a FLIR camera when I was in middle of cooking and you can see I was only at about 150°C. This was the induction element set at 6 or 7 I think:

[–] NuXCOM_90Percent@lemmy.zip 9 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago)

Yeah... homie, I think you are very much overthinking this.

Understand that "stir fry" is kind of a catch all for how a lot of Chinese folk (I think more the Southern regions but don't quote me on that) cook. It is conceptually no different than sauteeing some food for dinner and it is 100% a "week night dinner" deal.

Go watch a video or two on what a (home) stir fry should look like. J Kenji Lopez-Alt and Chinese Cooking Demistyfied did a collab a few years back on almost this exact topic. Then... just make sure you are doing that when you cook. If stuff doesn't sizzle "right" you are adding too much or the heat is too low and you should adjust that. And then, after a few times, it just becomes second nature.

No different than knowing that if you put the meat in the pan and there is no sizzle then you aren't going to get a good brown and need to raise the heat or wait longer. Similarly, if the oil explodes across the kitchen when you put that thigh down? Maybe turn it down a notch or five.

A lot of this is just what you grew up with. A LOT of people (self included) over-stuff tacos. And I am sure there are people who get confused over how to make a sandwich. Hell, a friend always laughs when I am "over thinking curry" and points out it is just a stew that even kids make and I shouldn't be measuring anything beyond "two bricks or four". And stir fries are a lot like that.

Don't get me wrong. There are some truly heinous things you can do with a wok. But stir fries are almost always what people are talking about when they insist that electric can't be used for authentic Chinese cooking (and then ignore how much of China actually have electric stoves...).

OH. Another thing people tend to forget: There are flat bottom woks for a reason. Yes, it is less "authentic". Except... most woks were cheap ass family everything pans and would get dinged and dented anyway. And as long as you are agitating the food, it doesn't matter if the bottom is perfectly round or has a big flat spot so that the heat can be more directly applied.

[–] grue@lemmy.world 3 points 4 days ago

Speaking of "wok hei" and "white guys on YouTube", Alton Brown's "cooking over a chimney starter" technique sounded to me like the next best alternative to having a proper industrial stove or big outdoor propane burner. Can you confirm or refute?

[–] Bronzie@sh.itjust.works 1 points 3 days ago (1 children)

I have induction and strugle with this even when not overfilling the pan, as the sides don’t get warm compared to the bottom. I have to make really small portions to manage properly, and mixing together in the end like you mentioned.

Never ever had gas as it’s uncommon here, but I’ll take your word for it not fixing it. Any advice to share, or do I just keep doing it in rounds?

[–] NuXCOM_90Percent@lemmy.zip 1 points 3 days ago

A wok? The raised sides of the wok are not supposed to get too warm. That is actually the "secret" of the pan. You have very centralized heat in the middle and you move things to the edges to just keep them warm while you cook the new ingredients through in the center/bottom.

How much of a gradient does indeed depend on your heat source. The propane tornado of horror in my backyard makes the center ridiculously hot but the edges are no slouch. A campfire is going to be a lesser and more controlled version of that. A smaller gas burner or an induction burner is mostly going to just heat up the center a lot.

But that is also why you let the wok come to temperature, same as any pan. ALL heat sources have hot spots. Some bits of wood burn hotter than other. The actual flame jets from your gas stove are hotter than the ceramic bit on top. Even the flamenado has hot and less hot spots. Hence why you always agitate food. Or, in the case of going for a sear and not understanding why restaraunt chefs insist you only flip once, you rotate/move the pan itself.

[–] Fedizen@lemmy.world 20 points 4 days ago

"The woke mob is trying to take away our suburban gas stoves!"

[–] Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world 18 points 4 days ago (3 children)

I’d totally go induction if:

They put the pulse width modulation on the label
They weren’t crazy expensive
I didn’t need to another couple grand to run a new 240V line to my kitchen

[–] MelodiousFunk@slrpnk.net 10 points 4 days ago (1 children)

I didn’t need to another couple grand to run a new 240V line to my kitchen

I've already got a circuit run. A prior owner installed a gas stove at some point 20+ years ago. The issue is that I can't test the outlet without removing the current oven. Knowing a bit about the prior owners, it wouldn't surprise me if they went with gas due to an electrical failure. Hooray for question marks and cover ups.

[–] brygphilomena@lemmy.dbzer0.com 6 points 4 days ago (1 children)

Most ovens can pull out. Code says the outlet you have should be a dedicated circuit. If you can trace the wires to the panel, you can probably see what it is. It shouldn't go through a junction and be wired directly to the panel.

You can probably even see the wire gauge at the panel, if you're comfortable taking the cover off. From that determine if it can support 240v at the appropriate amperage. Then it's just replacing a breaker and receptacle.

[–] MelodiousFunk@slrpnk.net 3 points 4 days ago (1 children)

I considered trying to move the oven. Not sure how flexible the gas line is, or if it should be disconnected first etc. I'm comfortable with electric, don't know a thing about gas beyond not to mess with it.

There's a dedicated 240V 40A breaker in the panel, has been in the tripped position since before we moved in. I haven't physically traced the line, cramped attic and semi-finished basement. When replacement time gets nearer I'll take a closer look before making a decision. Just not looking forward to it. Every time I've taken a closer look at this place, I haven't liked what I found. 🫠

[–] brygphilomena@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 4 days ago

Fair enough. Gas ovens are supposed to have a flex line for the final connection.

But I know how that is. I've had to open walls because I found circuits that just didn't have a ground and the flexible conduit they had just would abruptly stop half way without any grommets or anything. The more I see how the previous owner did their work, the more I regret opening anything.

[–] TheReturnOfPEB@reddthat.com 6 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (2 children)

And a big ass battery for when the power goes out, and I'd like to make a meal.

It goes out enough here for me to worry about that.

[–] Brkdncr@lemmy.world 7 points 4 days ago

Get a camp stove and a normal battery.

[–] swampdownloader@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago)

They actually do have that, the copper Charlie and impulse labs are induction stoves/cooktops with batteries so you don’t need a 240V outlet in the US.

[–] slate@sh.itjust.works 3 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (1 children)

https://a.co/d/ggvtZ6r

Induction stovetops and ranges are expensive, but induction cooktops are cheap. I've been using this one to avoid my gas range for years now. Heats up faster than gas and it plugs in to a normal 120v outlet. Haven't looked back, except when I absolutely need multiple burners. Maybe I'll buy a second, lol.

It's also great for camping.

[–] Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world 1 points 4 days ago

Already got one but mine is a cheap piece of crap that burns anything I cook low and slow.

And they don’t put the pulse width modulation on any of the labels so I can’t tell if a replacement will have the same problem.

[–] DahGangalang@infosec.pub 13 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago)

Not doubting if this was bad, but wanted to see if they commented as to the scale of the problem sin e they just state "of some Americans" in headline (and they do!):

Kashtan and colleagues estimate that the average total residential long-term NO2 exposure across the U.S. is 24 percent lower for people with electric stoves, which do not emit NO2.
The average American’s exposure to NO2 exceeds the World Health Organization’s recommended levels. However, approximately 22 million Americans would fall below the WHO-recommended limit if they stopped cooking with gas or cut back their use of it, Kashtan said.

[–] xep@discuss.online 8 points 4 days ago (2 children)

How would you mitigate this exposure, by ventilating the room well when using the stove?

[–] NuXCOM_90Percent@lemmy.zip 5 points 3 days ago

A proper range hood (so one that vents externally as opposed to in a cabinet...) is pretty much an essential. Both for cooking in general and for lighting gas on fire a few feet from your face for extended periods of time.

Been a minute but I want to say the Technology Connections video where he put an air quality sensor next to a gas stove also talked about opening a window?

But my not a doctor and not that kind of scientist statement: What you need is air circulation. So fans and open windows.

[–] slate@sh.itjust.works 7 points 4 days ago

I bought a toaster oven and a $50 induction cooktop, and now I almost never have the need to use my gas range. I hate that thing.

[–] brygphilomena@lemmy.dbzer0.com 9 points 4 days ago (1 children)

We put in a gas stove after dealing with an expensive shitty radiant electric stove top.

The duty cycle sucked for anything that didn't have high thermal mass. And I had a hell of a time keeping temperatures consistent when frying or doing anything that requires a consistent temperature.

If all I cared about was boiling water, that would have been fine. I probably would have been happy with actual induction. But radiant glass top stoves suck for a lot of what I was doing.

[–] _wizard@lemmy.world 1 points 4 days ago

I'm house shopping currently and gas stove isng something I'm seeing often in my price point. Absolutely top five wants.

[–] Canopyflyer@lemmy.world 7 points 4 days ago (1 children)

You'll have to pry my Wolf duel fuel range from my cold dead fingers...

With that said, if I had it to do over again I would definitely go with an induction stove. I have a high quality hood with a very strong fan and make sure it is running any time I use the cook top.

[–] who@feddit.org 5 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (1 children)

Wolf duel fuel range

It harnesses the powers of jealousy and ego to create nourishing meals!

[–] Canopyflyer@lemmy.world 1 points 3 days ago

The sad thing is a lot of Wolf products in the home are used as show pieces. I know one person that has the 60" duel fuel range, which is a $15,000 piece of equipment (mine is the DF304, which is 30" wide) and she buys packaged dinners from Trader Joes almost exclusively. She's been in her house for 10 years and the stove looks like it just came out of the show room. Absolutely insane, I'd love to have that much cooking area, unfortunately my kitchen isn't that large.

Not me, I use the ever living f#$k out of that stove. That's one of the reasons I bought it in the first place. I clapped out a Dacor in less than 5 years. Not that Dacor's are all that good (avoid at all costs). Wolf products are designed to live 20 years in a commercial kitchen. Mine gets used a lot, but there's no way I'm using as much as a commercial kitchen would.

[–] tal@lemmy.today 4 points 4 days ago (1 children)

Unlike gas furnaces or water heaters, stovetops lack direct ventilation.

You can definitely get unvented gas heaters in at least some states.

https://www.homedepot.com/b/Heating-Venting-Cooling-Heaters-Wall-Heaters-Gas-Wall-Heaters/Unvented/N-5yc1vZc7e2Z1z0w9qq

[–] silence7@slrpnk.net 5 points 4 days ago (1 children)

These things exist, but are quite uncommon compared with poorly vented stoves, or people who have a vent for their stove but don't run the fan at the necessary high power

[–] tal@lemmy.today 2 points 4 days ago (1 children)

quite uncommon

Thing is that they also are going to burn far more gas than is a stove unless you're in a really warm climate.

I don't think that they're permitted to be built into new-build stuff in California, but they're definitely grandfathered in in old buildings, and I've been in many that have them.

searches

https://starfiredirect.com/blogs/articles/why-do-some-states-ban-vent-free-gas-fireplaces

In fact, according to a paper from the Journal of the Air & Waste Management Association, nearly 23 million consumers use vent-free gas heating products.

[–] silence7@slrpnk.net 1 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (1 children)

In a world where every home has a stove, 23 million across the US is uncommon, enough so that people don't even know that they exist.

[–] tal@lemmy.today 1 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

Most stoves in the US are not gas; it's not an "all stoves versus a subset of heaters" sort of situation.

goes looking for percentages

https://www.statista.com/chart/29082/most-common-type-of-stove-in-the-us/

Electric stoves are overall more common in the U.S., with 68 percent of households owning one opposite 38 percent which have a gas stove.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/183635/number-of-households-in-the-us/

In 2023, there were 131.43 million households in the United States.

That'd be a 17.5% marketshare for gas heating, and a 38% marketshare for gas stoves, but the gas heaters are also going to use a lot more gas than gas stoves do. I'd be pretty comfortable saying that a gas heater will average considerably more than twice as much gas as a stove.

[–] SantasMagicalComfort@piefed.world 4 points 4 days ago (1 children)

I'd go with induction if my off-grid house produced enough power to run it but as it is I need propane to run my stove, dryer, hot water heater and the back-up furnace.

[–] silence7@slrpnk.net 8 points 4 days ago (1 children)

There are a few models of induction stove which include a large battery to run them by charging from 120v. Stoves are also kind of unique in that they have far less effective venting of exhaust than other appliances, so the health risk from them is much larger.

If youre able to get enough sunlight to charge the stove, its worth thinking about.

[–] SantasMagicalComfort@piefed.world 3 points 4 days ago (3 children)

The main thing would be what’s the voltage/amperage required and how does the oven work if it’s a standard one or not.

[–] Cort@lemmy.world 5 points 4 days ago

Full range (stove & oven) requires 50 amp circuit on 220v-240v. Plugs into Nema 14-50 outlet in USA usually, but you can wire up whatever.

Technically only needs the 50 amp breaker since it could use that much if everything is turned on.

You could get a single burner induction cooktop and they'll plug into a normal 120v 15 amp outlet.

[–] silence7@slrpnk.net 4 points 4 days ago

Youre going to have to look at a spec sheet, but the stoves with a built-in battery tend to designed to draw a constant low amperage as they charge, and then be able to cook about three meals from the battery. Very different from stoves without a battery.

[–] NuXCOM_90Percent@lemmy.zip 2 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Your mileage may vary, obviously

But a friend has one of the bigass battery models (the expensive fancy one because he was impressing his inlaws). Cooked a full friendsgiving dinner with the only problem being his burners being tiny (which we all knew but didn't want to say...).

Which, conceptually, makes sense. I basically only have my induction at full power when I am rapidly bringing something to a boil so I can then add the noodles and back off. So maybe a minute every 30-60 minutes during a big cooking day? And the rest of the time it is at between 40-70% on 1-2 of the 4 burners.

So if we assume the stoves are properly rated to power all four burners at 100% on a 240V circuit? That should actually be pretty within reason for a 120V circuit to handle with the battery pack being for bursting beyond that.

I would still be incredibly wary of buying one since the batteries do have a limited number of cycles. But if you are spending that much for a new stove? You probably are planning to do that again within the next decade?

[–] SantasMagicalComfort@piefed.world 1 points 3 days ago

I looked into it and since my whole house runs on batteries having a battery powered one doesn't change much it just uses too much power generally so a propane stove is much better for my specific use case.

[–] PattyMcB@lemmy.world 2 points 4 days ago (1 children)

The paywall makes me want to guess carbon monoxide

[–] silence7@slrpnk.net 7 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago)

There is no paywall. Just scroll down

The common kitchen appliance plays an outsized role in exposure to nitrogen dioxide, a toxic air pollutant.

[–] CoffeeSoldier@sh.itjust.works 1 points 4 days ago

Ok, but you can take my gas stove away over my dead body, which apparently might be dead from an asthma attack.