this post was submitted on 05 Dec 2025
34 points (85.4% liked)

Ask Science

15021 readers
72 users here now

Ask a science question, get a science answer.


Community Rules


Rule 1: Be respectful and inclusive.Treat others with respect, and maintain a positive atmosphere.


Rule 2: No harassment, hate speech, bigotry, or trolling.Avoid any form of harassment, hate speech, bigotry, or offensive behavior.


Rule 3: Engage in constructive discussions.Contribute to meaningful and constructive discussions that enhance scientific understanding.


Rule 4: No AI-generated answers.Strictly prohibit the use of AI-generated answers. Providing answers generated by AI systems is not allowed and may result in a ban.


Rule 5: Follow guidelines and moderators' instructions.Adhere to community guidelines and comply with instructions given by moderators.


Rule 6: Use appropriate language and tone.Communicate using suitable language and maintain a professional and respectful tone.


Rule 7: Report violations.Report any violations of the community rules to the moderators for appropriate action.


Rule 8: Foster a continuous learning environment.Encourage a continuous learning environment where members can share knowledge and engage in scientific discussions.


Rule 9: Source required for answers.Provide credible sources for answers. Failure to include a source may result in the removal of the answer to ensure information reliability.


By adhering to these rules, we create a welcoming and informative environment where science-related questions receive accurate and credible answers. Thank you for your cooperation in making the Ask Science community a valuable resource for scientific knowledge.

We retain the discretion to modify the rules as we deem necessary.


founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
 

Physicalism or materialism. The idea that everything there is arises from physical matter. If true would mean there is no God or Free Will, no immortal soul either.

Seems to be what most of academia bases their world view on and the frame work in which most Science is done.

Often challenged by Dualism and Idealism but only by a loud fringe minority.

I've heard pan-psychicism is proving quite the challenge, but I hear that from people who believe crystals can cure autism

I hear that "Oh actually the science is moving away from materialism" as well, but that seems to be more crystal talk as well.

So lemme ask science instead of google.

Any reason to doubt physicalism? Is there anything in science that says "Huh well that seems to not have any basis in the physical at all and yet it exists"

Edit: I have heard of the Essentia Foundation and Bernado Kastrup but since it's endorsed by Deepak Chopra I'm not sure I can trust it

top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] xxce2AAb@feddit.dk 22 points 2 months ago (2 children)

that seems to not have any basis in the physical at all and yet it exists

If it has no basis in physical reality, how would you detect, measure or quantify it? On what basis would you prove its existence?

[–] electric_nan@lemmy.ml 5 points 2 months ago

Tune your consciousness into the vibrations. Duh.

[–] MajorasTerribleFate@lemmy.zip 2 points 2 months ago (2 children)

I mean, if spontaneously every person on Earth heard a voice in their head say "I'm God and I love all of you, be nice to each other" in their own languages, but no physical evidence of the event could be found, that could count.

[–] xxce2AAb@feddit.dk 6 points 2 months ago

Possibly. Let's revisit the issue if that ever comes to pass.

[–] Tattorack@lemmy.world 3 points 1 month ago

Except that's a pretty material event. If thing A interacts with thing B there is a material thing happening between them, which can immediately be measured and quantified.

It wouldn't help that such an event happens only once, but you'll still have 8 billion data points to draw a conclusion from.

[–] e0qdk@reddthat.com 20 points 2 months ago (3 children)

Assuming that the universe actually exists outside ourselves and that our perceptions can be explained by some set of rules (that we call "physics") seem like necessary axioms to get anywhere in science. You could reject those assumptions, but then I don't see much of a compelling reason to accept anything beyond solipsism if you don't believe in reality.

That said, I'm not sure that physics will ever be able to provide a good, complete explanation of qualia.

[–] CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org 3 points 1 month ago (6 children)

What about biology? What if one day a neurologist finds the brain part that creates the illusion you're not just a brain?

load more comments (6 replies)
[–] onlinepersona@programming.dev 2 points 1 month ago (4 children)

Of course it can. We are biological machines. Not every machine is perfect copy of another. Differences in the organs that perceive the world will lead to subjective experiences. There's no "mystery".

load more comments (4 replies)
[–] flying_sheep@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 month ago (2 children)

I never understood the point of “qualia” and “p-zombies”. To act exactly as a human does, you need the internal voice that is among your motivating factors to act like you do.

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] TheMetaleek@sh.itjust.works 11 points 2 months ago (1 children)

So the thing is, like other commenters have said, you're asking metaphysics things through the prism of science, which does not work because by nature, science uses the (mostly) objective scientific method, while metaphysics is based on subjective assessments.

You have to separate the physical, material universe as being in the domain of what can be known, from the rest, which can not be, and never will. This does not mean it doesn't exist, just that it can never be studied or proved in any way, so anyone can believe what they wish about it without leaving rationality (as long as the belief does not imply things concerning the material universe)

[–] Amnesigenic@lemmy.ml 3 points 2 months ago

We do not have enough evidence to conclude that subjective experience will never be objectively measurable, sufficiently advanced neuroscience absolutely could reach a point where every aspect of human experience could be measured observed and compared. We almost certainly won't live to see it though.

[–] notsosure@sh.itjust.works 11 points 2 months ago (5 children)

Not sure what you are talking about. Science isn’t philosophy or religion, you can’t make choices what’s true or isn’t. A fact is a fact.

load more comments (5 replies)
[–] WatDabney@sopuli.xyz 8 points 2 months ago (11 children)

Any reason to doubt physicalism?

Describe "doubt" in purely physical terms.

load more comments (11 replies)
[–] teawrecks@sopuli.xyz 8 points 1 month ago

"Has anyone found a viable alternative to falsifiable hypotheses?"

[–] Mohamed@lemmy.ca 6 points 1 month ago (1 children)

I think it is possible, logically at least, to have gods, free will and souls even if everything were physical matter, unless you define those terms specifically to be metaphysical but then its like a True Scotsman fallacy.

Physicalism might be the most viable, but that does not mean its viable enough. There are huge holes - we have no explanation for consciousness, sentience, free will, physics still doesn't explain everything physical, and quantum mechanics is such a weird aberration of physical matter I am tempted to not call it that.

However, nothing beats the scientific method for truth finding at the moment. And, at the moment, the scientific method is content with only giving us physical results.

[–] CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org 2 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

I mean, that living beings have no consciousness, sentience or free will totally distinct from inanimate objects would be the simplest hypothesis, and is also what the models predict.

[–] Mohamed@lemmy.ca 2 points 1 month ago (1 children)

True, but its contradictory in a way to our own experience. From its nature, I can only speak for myself. I can believe that everything outside of me, including humans, have no free will or sentience. No contradictions there. However, I cannot believe that I myself am not sentient - it just doesn't make sense. I must be sentient. I dont hâve a good argument, its just that its so obviously true.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] Objection@lemmy.ml 6 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (5 children)

Any reason to doubt physicalism? Is there anything in science that says “Huh well that seems to not have any basis in the physical at all and yet it exists”

If it had no basis in the physical, then what would it mean to say that it "exists?" How you define "existence" is a very big philosophical question. Excuse me while I nerd the fuck out about something.

Physics tells us that the observable universe is 93 billion light years in diameter. However, we can sometimes observe objects leaving the observable universe. This is because of complicated physics reasons:

Physical space is expanding with time. Everything is getting farther apart from everything else, and the more distance there is between two points, the faster the space in between them is expanding. At a sufficiently large distance, the rate at which the distance between the two points is increasing, is faster than the speed of light. Neither point is actually moving faster than the speed of light, it's only the space between them that is expanding. This might be hard to understand, but think of it as if you drew two dots on a balloon and then inflated it.

Once an object gets far enough away from us that the space between is expanding faster than the speed of light, it becomes impossible for us to make any further observations about that thing. This is actually what defines the bounds of "the observable universe."

So, what happens to objects that leave the observable universe? Strictly speaking, it's impossible to say. Intuitively, we would expect that they're still there doing their thing and obeying the same physical laws as when we could observe them. But, if you told me that the stars simply vanish, or that they magically transform into butterflies as soon as they leave, there's no evidence that anyone could ever produce that would falsify that belief, because, by definition, there is no way to observe what happens outside of the observable universe. If we are defining what exists based on what is physically observable, then it follows that things outside the observable universe do not exist, even if it really seems like they should.

My conclusion from this line of thought is that existence is a relational property. I am not prepared to reject the idea that a thing has to be in some way observable in order to exist, but in that case, nothing can exist in isolation. Because for a thing to be observable means that there must exist a being which could observe it. This could be said to contradict physicalism, because physicalism would say that the material world exists regardless of our senses. I would say that the physical world only exists so long as there are beings capable of sensing it, and, should all sentient beings ever become extinct, the physical world would no longer exist in any meaningful sense.

[–] UNY0N@lemmy.wtf 3 points 2 months ago (41 children)

I think the main problem with this sort of logic is that it presumes that what we see is reality. This isn't necessarily true.

Evolution has shaped us to see that which is most important for our survival. If seeing things as they truly are would interfere with our evolutionary fitness, then our brains would filther that out. In fact, this seems very likely, evidence being the many illusions that can be used to fool our senses.

If this was the case, then physical objects may not exsist at all, they would just be an artifact of this filtering effect. Roland Hoffmann is a great resource for understanding this sort of theory.

https://youtu.be/oYp5XuGYqqY

load more comments (41 replies)
load more comments (4 replies)
[–] Tollana1234567@lemmy.today 4 points 2 months ago (11 children)

this seems more like metaphysics, or philosophy than actual science, this would be more appropiate in that discussion. you odnt want to mix religion into science.

load more comments (11 replies)
[–] UNY0N@lemmy.wtf 4 points 2 months ago

I think this makes a lot of sense:

https://youtu.be/oYp5XuGYqqY

[–] AbouBenAdhem@lemmy.world 4 points 2 months ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

I think the framing of questions like this assumes that there are certain “physical” things that follow one intrinsic set of laws, and certain other things that follow a fundamentally different, incommensurate set of laws.

But we don’t actually have direct knowledge of any intrinsic laws, physical or otherwise—the best we have are a set of purely provisional laws we’ve made up and regularly revise on the basis of cumulative evidence. And our method for revising these provisional laws requires that any new evidence that contradicts a law, invalidates it—provisional laws must apply to everything without exception. If we give ourselves the out that contradictory evidence can be attributed to “non-physical” causes, we can never invalidate anything nor update our models. So dualistic models are inherently unscientific—not because they’re wrong, but because starting with such assumptions is incompatible with the scientific method.

[–] CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org 3 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (3 children)

Basically, there's a little wiggle room left in our current model of the universe, but not much, and absolutely nothing close to human-scale. Dualism is nowhere to be found - we can observe the mind breaking or operating physically - and Idealism better be indistinguishable from materialism to work.

I hear that “Oh actually the science is moving away from materialism” as well, but that seems to be more crystal talk as well.

Yep. The grain of truth here is that materials at really small scale look quite different. At small scale, and in a specific, rigorously defined way. I don't want your crystals or dog THC, Karen.

load more comments (3 replies)
[–] x00z@lemmy.world 2 points 1 month ago (2 children)

“Huh well that seems to not have any basis in the physical at all and yet it exists”

Observed particles behave different.

[–] CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org 7 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (3 children)

No they don't. Or, maybe, depending on what you mean by "observed". A consciousness doesn't have to be involved in any case.

load more comments (3 replies)
load more comments (1 replies)
[–] lemming@sh.itjust.works 2 points 2 months ago (1 children)

It also depends how you define physical matter.

If it's something you cam touch, then there definitely is, starting with neutrinos.

If you mean particles we know about, can describe and sort of understand, then there's dark matter, which is probably particles we don't know yet, but have several candidates we didn't manage to confirm or disprove yet. They can only interact by gravitational (and perhaps weak?) force.

If you mean something we know at least something solid about, there's dark energy, which isn't absolutely 100% certain that it exists, but is widely accepted.

If you mean something physics doesn't detect and try to explain, then obviously not.

[–] QueenHawlSera@sh.itjust.works 2 points 2 months ago (1 children)

How is Dark Matter non-physical?

[–] lemming@sh.itjust.works 3 points 2 months ago

In the sense that it isn't particles we know about, can describe and sort of understand, as I wrote. Plus you can't touch it. You didn't say what you mean by physical, so I tried 4 different definitions I thought you might mean.

[–] JackbyDev@programming.dev 2 points 2 months ago (17 children)

It doesn't mean that there's no soul, god, or after life, just none that we can prove in any meaningful way.

load more comments (17 replies)
[–] verdi@feddit.org 2 points 2 months ago

No reason to doubt it.

load more comments
view more: next ›