this post was submitted on 11 Nov 2025
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The Elder Scrolls 6 is "still a long way off", says Todd Howard, but development is his "everyday thing" (www.eurogamer.net)
submitted 1 day ago by alessandro@lemmy.ca to c/pcgaming@lemmy.ca
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[–] Zozano@aussie.zone 18 points 15 hours ago* (last edited 14 hours ago) (2 children)

To plagiarise myself from an earlier post:

The fact they’re going to use the same fucking engine until the end of time is enough for me to tap out, regardless of whether the game is 'good'

The whatever engine is the same tech stack thats been duct-taped since Morrowind. It's built on code from the early 2000s, and there are things that just can't be fixed without scrapping the whole foundation.

You want to decouple physics from frame rate? Fuck you, the physics tick still runs off the render loop.

You want multithreaded logic? Fuck you, the scripting and AI all run on the main thread.

You want proper world streaming instead of 3×3 cell loading? Fuck you, the world still freezes beyond your bubble.

You want reliable saves that don’t implode when a mod changes a record? Fuck you, it’s all still FormIDs tied to giant serialized blobs.

You want modern animation blending? Fuck you, it's still a Havok skeleton from the Oblivion era with duct-taped IK.

Every 'new engine' is just another layer of duct tape. They can slap PBR on it, tweak lighting, and call it Creation Engine 2, but under the hood it’s the same brittle mess that’s been dragging bugs forward for twenty years.

I’m done funding experiments built on bones that should’ve been buried a decade ago.

[–] skaffi@infosec.pub 4 points 12 hours ago (1 children)

I get you - kinda. Engines are big. Take a look at some of the other “havers of game engines” and see how often threw a whole, working engine away, to recreate one from scratch?

Valve's Source Engine was first used for a release in 2004, but it wasn't really a new engine either, as it was just a continuation of GoldSrc, first used for Half-Life, released in 1998. And GoldSrc? Well it was based off of the Quake Engine, later known as id Tech 2, which was the engine of the namesake game from 1996.

Is Valve's engine a decrepit relic, not suitable for modern games? I haven't been keeping up, but as far as I know, that's not really a common refrain. And I know that it has at several points in time been an engine hailed for bringing innovative technology to the table - despite quite literally been a direct continuation of the engine of one the very first mainstream games to sport true 3D rendered graphics.

Without having checked, I'm willing to bet each new version of the Unreal Engine has simple been based off of the former, too, all the way back to 1998's Unreal. It doesn't make sense to throw away parts that work just fine, for the sake of it, when you're dealing with something as big as an engine, as you're likely to just end up rewriting parts of it 1:1.

But fuck if the Creation Engine isn't a janky ass mess, and if that hasn't always been the case! Morrowind was helluva janky too, but we excused it because it was able to deliver something unprecedented. By Oblivion in 2006, that was no longer the case.
Most other havers of engines have done a more or less good job of continually innovating, upgrading, expanding and replacing parts of their engines, whereas it seems Bethesda has always done the bare minimum, to the point that over 50% of the engine must be composed of duct tape at this point, with actual.code presumably on second place somewhere further down.

Bethesda needs to either spend all this excessive development on properly reworking and upgrading their engine, or they should throw it away forever and just license something like Unreal Engine.

[–] djsoren19@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 points 3 hours ago* (last edited 3 hours ago) (1 children)

I think this is the big difference. For the really successful companies, their proprietary engine is their baby, and they have teams spending dozens of hours every week trying to improve its performance, squashing out bugs, doing refactoring, etc. I'm thinking of companies like GrindingGearGames and DigitalExtremes who've been on their engines for over a decade and continually push improvements with every major update.

I simply don't believe that work is being done at Bethesda. I'd be shocked if it was. It feels like they treat maintenance of their engine as some kinda punishment they make junior devs go through or something. At this point, they've accumulated such a mountain of technical debt that it might honestly be more efficient for them to start from scratch, which is a pretty damning statement.

[–] TheObviousSolution@lemmy.ca 1 points 59 minutes ago

Bethesda has been known for lacking any decent capacity for engine handling since the days of Daggerfall.

[–] ThunderComplex@lemmy.today 2 points 12 hours ago (1 children)

Yeah the engine is so horrible I wonder how they can afford to continue using it. I don’t even know how modders put up with this bullshit.
I get wanting to make the game you love better but there’s gotta be a limit.
Tried my hand at Starfield modding and omg the editor crashes constantly. Makes me wonder if this is a practical joke or the devs really work like this.

[–] TheObviousSolution@lemmy.ca 1 points 57 minutes ago

Because it is the most cookie cutter of cookie cutter of development kits. Other development kits require devs to keep track of lower level engine issues.

[–] ArchmageAzor@lemmy.world 5 points 14 hours ago (1 children)

What honestly surprises me the most about Bethesda is that they managed to release a remaster of Oblivion instead of yet another Skyrim version. They must have tied Todd to a chair in the basement for the whole development to let that happen.

[–] scholar@lemmy.world 3 points 8 hours ago

They outsourced it to a different studio who slapped UE5 on top of the creation engine while Todd wasn't looking

[–] Kolanaki@pawb.social 8 points 21 hours ago

Maybe take a day or two off, Todd. The game might actually not suck if you aren't involved.

[–] Hadriscus@jlai.lu 29 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I am not interested anymore, sorry... the indie scene makes much, much better games than whatever starfield is. It's honestly a little heartbreaking because I am a longtime Morrowind fan but obviously the magic is gone

[–] djsoren19@lemmy.blahaj.zone 59 points 1 day ago (2 children)

There's absolutely no way it'll be able to live up to the hype. Fallout 4 was a disappointment compared to the rest of the series, Starfield was a disappointment, I just no longer have confidence Bethesda can produce good games.

[–] MirthfulAlembic@lemmy.world 18 points 1 day ago (2 children)

I haven't played Starfield due to its reception, but Fallout 4 for me was excellent taken for what it was. Granted, the modding community (as usual for Bethesda) elevated it from a good to great game. I was surprised the number of hours I've put into it actually surpassed New Vegas. Though overall imo New Vegas > 4 > 3.

[–] BurntWits@sh.itjust.works 5 points 22 hours ago (1 children)

I’m pretty sure I was the only person in the world who enjoyed Starfield, though the criticisms are definitely valid. It’s not a good RPG but it does make for a fun initial playthrough if you just do the main and major side quests. I would cautiously recommend it on sale due to the reception but I happened to find it fun. I sunk about 60 hours into it on my first playthrough but didn’t pick it up after. Still, 60 hours of having fun is worth the cost for me personally. I’d only recommend it on sale though, but that also goes for nearly every game so take that with a grain of salt.

I also happened to really enjoy Fallout 4, but again not as an RPG. It’s not a great RPG but it is a really fun open world FPS game with mild RPG elements and a sadly lacklustre post-game, just like Starfield. Procedurally generated areas definitely harmed Starfield where it didn’t harm Fallout 4, but otherwise, to me personally, I’d say they’re comparable in terms of quality. Hot take, I know. I’m prepared to have this be the most downvoted comment in lemmy history, but that’s just my opinion. Take it with the grainiest of salts.

[–] Tlaloc_Temporal@lemmy.ca 5 points 21 hours ago (1 children)

I don't think that's all that hot of a take. The big killer in Starfield is just how much not playing there is between the playing.

In Fallout, just walking to a new place you'll stumble on a few ruins, a couple fights, maybe even some faction action. You'll get some loot, spend some time and resources, maybe discover a good story or unique item. And in Fallout 4, all the useless loot can be broken down for upgrades to your equipment and home base, so most of it is nice.

Is Starfield, there's nothing. Maybe a generic fight with pirates you could easily run from. Even if you happen to find good loot, it's not really that good.

I'm glad you found fun in there though!

[–] BurntWits@sh.itjust.works 3 points 21 hours ago (1 children)

Yeah, that’s fair. I get what you mean. I guess I agree with that too because I have more time in Fallout 4 than Starfield by a fair bit. I would still consider them to be comparable though in terms of quality, with Fallout 4 just a bit above Starfield. I like both games though, but don’t love either. I really enjoyed the ship building in Starfield too, it was one of my favourite aspects of the game. Settlement building in Fallout 4 was pretty fun but not nearly as fun to me.

[–] Tlaloc_Temporal@lemmy.ca 3 points 21 hours ago (1 children)

The ship building is really cool! Getting there is tedious and annoying, but being able to walk around your ship is fun. It's like Space Engineers with 99% less avoidable mistakes!

I wonder how good Starfield might have been if they dumped most of the planetside stuff and just had ships and space stations, all using this modular build system.

[–] BurntWits@sh.itjust.works 2 points 20 hours ago (1 children)

I hope someone takes Starfield’s ship building, adds something new and interesting, and releases it as a main feature of a new game. Every now and then I’m tempted to hop back into Starfield just to mess around with that mechanic. Or maybe if Bethesda makes a sequel, but tames it down and listens to fans to make it a really solid game, and brings back the ship building. I’d definitely give it a shot.

[–] TheObviousSolution@lemmy.ca 3 points 16 hours ago (1 children)

No Man's Sky seems to have done this with their corvette update, although I've yet to try it.

[–] BurntWits@sh.itjust.works 2 points 9 hours ago

I’ll have to look into that then. Thanks for the info.

[–] djsoren19@lemmy.blahaj.zone 21 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I mean to each their own, I was not impressed by the lack of meaningful roleplaying decisions and the lack of other faction questlines. I felt like the game had very little to offer outside of the main storyline, it really felt like settlement building took too much of the scope despite being rather lackluster. I also think "good with mods" is the same as "fun with friends" in that it applies to literally any game.

In case you were wondering, Starfield was much of the same. Lots of "Yes, Sarcastic Yes, No" dialogues, lots of focus on the main story, with the big twist being that they added lots of New Game+ easter eggs to encourage replaying with the same character.

[–] MirthfulAlembic@lemmy.world 2 points 1 day ago

I think there's something to be said about a game that is both able to be and worth modding to such a degree. Bethesda has a bit of an unfair advantage due to decades of community knowledge building on the creation engine, however. I don't disagree with any of your criticisms though.

[–] ryathal@sh.itjust.works 8 points 1 day ago (1 children)

There's no way a game that people have been waiting over a decade for is ever going to live up to the hype.

[–] Tlaloc_Temporal@lemmy.ca 4 points 21 hours ago

Silksong was 8 years, and had some of the craziest hype ever, and it's been solid.

[–] SlartyBartFast@sh.itjust.works 5 points 22 hours ago

Caius Cosaides Forever at this point. Another ten years of vaporware

[–] Quicky@piefed.social 31 points 1 day ago

There’s a very good chance that my daughter, who was too young to play games when Skyrim was released, will be long into adulthood by the time TES 6 is released. Blows my mind.

[–] theoneandonlyeggboi@lemmings.world 26 points 1 day ago (4 children)

I'm hoping we see a similar technological jump like we did with Oblivion and Skyrim instead of just a new setting, like we got with Starfield.

[–] Hazzard@lemmy.zip 14 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Honestly I think they just have their priorities weird. Like.... what value does it add that there's a bazillion little interactable objects for every piece of silverware and trash in a room, and that they all have physics and remember their positions when I leave a room?

Don't get me wrong, that is impressive, and has great meme potential as shown with Skyrim cheese wheels, etc, but what value does it actually add to the core gameplay? Because when the core gameplay is bland, I don't care to collect 10,000 cheese wheels, and using Fus Ro Dah on the Jarl's feast didn't single-handedly make Skyrim fun. In practice, most of those objects are just inventory clutter I avoid like the plague to make sure I don't have to sort it all later.

I really just feel like they're struggling immensely to win a technical battle they never needed to win, and it's causing them to be lacklustre in every other technical aspect.

[–] Kronusdark@lemmy.world 29 points 1 day ago

The creation engine is the embodiment of the sunk-cost fallacy for Bethesda.

[–] tiredofsametab@fedia.io 21 points 1 day ago

I'm hoping they sell the IP to someone who competent who will realse solid games and not cashgrab, but I think I'll be dead before that day comes. I have zero plan to buy it when it comes out despite enjoying Skyrim and Oblivion

[–] aeronmelon@lemmy.world 5 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

It would have to have something like a VR mode.

Or the ENTIRE planet of Nirn that you can walk from one side of to the other.

[–] theoneandonlyeggboi@lemmings.world 13 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (2 children)

This might upset some of you, but I picture them implementing NPCs with AI and personalities that you can actually converse with.

Todd said a few years back that they simply did not have the technology to do what they want with TES6 yet, so I'm assuming this is what he was referring to.

[–] TachyonTele@piefed.social 17 points 1 day ago

If there's a shortcut that Todd can take by not even needing to write dialog for NPCs, he'll take it.

[–] Ephera@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I have been expecting that to happen in gaming in general. I feel like the reason we aren't seeing it right now, is because it would feel quite pointless to integrate it into a game, if it isn't actually properly integrated.

For example, if you tell an NPC to jump off a cliff and the LLM responds with "Excellent idea!", then well, you expect the NPC to do that thing.
Or if a dragon crashlands next to an NPC, you expect it to notice and not tell you calmly about the weather.
You need code for these things. Tons of code.

To some degree, Bethesda will have the money to do that sort of thing, especially since they're now owned by Microsoft, which's investors are extra horny for AI.
And they already have a reputation of jank and Todd Howard lying, so there's perhaps less of an expectation for an NPC actually reacting to a crashlanded dragon.

But even then, this whole thing might just end up being a very expensive gimmick.
In particular, you can't expect console players to have a keyboard for chatting. You can try to do voice control instead, but you also cannot expect players to have a (decent) microphone, or for them to be talking to their console when they want to play late in the evening.

So, you can't really make this LLM thing part of the core gameplay. Everything will still need to be solvable without it. Which gives it very high potential to become a gimmick.
Maybe you could have pre-canned questions like we currently do and then an LLM responds, kind of keeping the context of your conversation in mind? That might still be annoying, though, when as a player, you can never be too sure, if it gave you all the relevant info, or you have to repeat the question another time.

[–] TachyonTele@piefed.social 1 points 2 hours ago

Your absolutely right about all of your points. But it hinges on one thing: devs using ai for the players enjoyment. That's not how they're going to use it. It'll be to help them skimp on writers.

[–] karashta@piefed.social 15 points 1 day ago (2 children)

I'll just continue playing Tainted Grail: Fall of Avalon and you can continue to be totally irrelevant to gaming, Todd.

[–] BradleyUffner@lemmy.world 4 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I just looked it up and wow, how have I managed to not hear about this game until now? This is going to be my next obsession.

[–] karashta@piefed.social 1 points 21 hours ago

Enjoy! They just opened it to modding too iirc

[–] zod000@lemmy.dbzer0.com 6 points 1 day ago

That game is better than any new TES game Bethesda has made in ten years. Oh right, they haven't even made a new TES game in time frame. Game is still quite good :)

[–] mech@feddit.org 0 points 16 hours ago

Rumors are the storyline is written by George R. R. Martin.

[–] shneancy@lemmy.world 3 points 1 day ago (1 children)

i just hope Skyrim Grandma gets to play it :(

[–] BradleyUffner@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago

Probably "great grandma" by then.