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Fucking idiots (lemmy.dbzer0.com)

submitted 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) by Stamets@lemmy.dbzer0.com to c/Tumblr@lemmy.dbzer0.com

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PLEASE CHECK THIS OUT. Our own Aeronmelon is going through some shit at the moment and could use some help. Check it out here and consider an upvote or a comment to push it into activity. Sorry, not something I do often or will be spamming. But I care about my friend and if I can get a couple more eyes on his situation then I'm going to try to do what I can. (Last one I promise. Just twice. Not going to spam but dude is a big part of the Lemmy community, especially with Trek, and he deserves the help. And to the mods, if this doesn't fit and you want to remove? Go for it. I completely understand it and I am sorry)

Edit: Oh wait I'm the mod here. Well, I say it is fine

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[–] hypna@lemmy.world 89 points 2 weeks ago (4 children)

The easier case for this argument is terrorism. After it was established that terrorists were so awful that they didn't deserve the normal legal and human rights, and that the government deserved huge budgets and exceptions to it's normal restraints to get them, we now have any use of force that threatens the status quo being treated as terrorism.

Same principal, but easier for those who get really stuck on the pedophile thing.

[–] SpookyBogMonster@lemmy.ml 7 points 2 weeks ago

A lot of gringos get stuck on the terrorism thing too :/

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[–] QuantumTickle@lemmy.zip 64 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

I was leaving my grocery store when I saw a person calling for people to sign petitions. They had a variety of things to sign from lowering property taxes to "ensure pedophiles are jailed for at least 80% of their sentence length before opportunity of parole." Republicans at the time were throwing the word around in relation to the LGBTQ. The core idea of this post clicked so hard in my head I think my wife heard it.

[–] brygphilomena@lemmy.dbzer0.com 12 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

I always feel like they are hurrying to get me to sign when I start actually reading everything it says. It's such emotional manipulation to get you to sign for something like the pedophiles should serve 80% of the sentence, but you read it and there is so much more about redefining what crimes are considered pedophilia.

Like, these are not simple 1 sentence things. Politics is not the simple solutions that people like to taut and quick and easy. Things need to be thought through thoroughly, written clearly, and extremely well defined.

I feel like the people who respond to "common sense solutions" are so unfathomably dumb not to realize that if it were so simple or easy it would have been done already. Or that it actually already exists and they just don't know about it.

[–] QuantumTickle@lemmy.zip 10 points 2 weeks ago

"Common sense solutions" come pre-packaged and pre-approved so no extra thought is necessary.

The world is complicated and over simplifying it is doing yourself a disservice.

[–] x00z@lemmy.world 3 points 2 weeks ago

Most of the people trying to get signatures in public try not to waste too much time on a single person.

But yeah you also have to look out because there are definitely people doing this kind of manipulation.

[–] JackbyDev@programming.dev 55 points 2 weeks ago (6 children)

A similar one I used to see a lot on Reddit was Europeans saying racism is bad except when it's against Romani people. Like people would unironically just say shit like "no, they're actually all bad."

[–] RickyRigatoni@retrolemmy.com 29 points 2 weeks ago

Yeah I had a conversation with a redditor where they were all like "You don't understand what it's like to actually live near them" and it just made me feel like I was talking to Uncle Cletus about Dominicans or some shit. It's all the same mind virus everywhere.

[–] IAmNorRealTakeYourMeds@lemmy.world 14 points 2 weeks ago

the I'm not racist but...

[–] ThatGuy46475@lemmy.world 12 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Two groups of people I can’t stand: people who judge someone purely for where they’re from, and the Dutch.

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[–] stray@pawb.social 47 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

I agree, but it's not only that. It's also that actual pedophiles are mentally ill people, and I don't think torturing them will help anyone. It's important to me to recognize that the reason I'm not a pedophile is because I'm lucky enough to have avoided that disorder, that it has nothing to do with any moral triumph on my part. I'm hopeful we'll one day have the technology to recognize these kinds of flaws and treat them before anyone gets hurt. In the mean time I think it's better to encourage them to be honest and seek help rather than demonize them, because abuse is more likely to occur if they aren't receiving treatment.

[–] Soulg@ani.social 15 points 2 weeks ago

Been saying this for a long time. Nobody chooses who or what they are attracted to, but they don't ever stop to think about the fact that these people aren't choosing to be into children.

[–] SailorFuzz@lemmy.world 7 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

I can agree to the major stake on your claim about mental illness. And I'm sure that definitely exists and is a factor for a number of people...

However, you're dismissing two other major categories and groups of people: power and taboo.

Its been studied and reported that many rapes/sexual assault happen, not solely for sexual attraction/gratification but to dominate. To have power over another. Not a mental illness or attraction, just a want to exert power.

Another group would be those into the taboo. The exotic chaser types. The thrill is in doing something forbidden.

And when those two groups collide with someone who has a lot of money and live consequence free, you end up with Epstein. Rich people who want to do something forbidden, to exert sadistic power over others. Its not a mental illness, its not an attraction. Its because they can.

[–] stray@pawb.social 9 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

This is the context in which it's relevant to recognize that Jeffrey Epstein was not a pedophile by the actual definition of the word. He and his kind have something else wrong with them that you already recognized: they are sadistic and wish to exert power over others. I can't armchair diagnose them, but I do know that something is wrong with their brains to make them want to hurt people. A normal, healthy human exhibits empathy so strongly that it's even applied to members of other species and inanimate objects.

I don't mean that we need to have any sympathy for them or any other abusers, or that our disgust with them is wrong. But intellectually I think it's important to know the reason I don't hurt people for fun is because I don't want to in the first place. I could just as easily have ended up like them if I had fewer cooperative social instincts intact. We have to restrict their freedom for public safety, but actively punishing them for their flaws is as cruel and pointless as beating an aggressive dog.

[–] WorldsDumbestMan@lemmy.today 6 points 2 weeks ago

Didn't a study find that a good chunk of the population is sadistic? Something like 40% of subjects sverved to hit a turtle with their car iirc.

They went out of their way to hurt animals, I hope they get prostate cancer, and rot inside the prison that is their body.

[–] bampop@lemmy.world 5 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (2 children)

I wish more of our society looked at it in such a rational way. The point of imprisonment should be either rehabilitation or removal from society. And we should be clear about what works in which cases. Permanent imprisonment should definitely be on the cards for some kinds of people, simply because they will never be fit to be let out. But people get this all muddled up with outrage, hatred, an emotional need for othering, punishment, justice, retribution. And then further muddled with the flip side of forgiveness, of having paid a debt to society, of rehabilitation through religion, of the kind of misplaced empathy that assumes we're all the same on the inside. Of course there's a whole bunch of political and financial incentives to maintain the confusion.

[–] stray@pawb.social 3 points 2 weeks ago

But people get this all muddled up with outrage, hatred, an emotional need for othering, punishment, justice, retribution.

It's understandable and a good thing that we have these feelings because they evolved to motivate us to be able to kill or expel bad actors from our social groups. Without those feelings we'd just be enabling everyone's abuse all the time. It's not like I don't get mental images of going all John Wick on bad guys. We just have to set aside our feelings and consider what results in the best societal outcomes, regardless of what seems fair or what would feel good in the moment.

[–] Swedneck@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

i just want to point out that permanent imprisonment also doesn't have to be particularly bad for the imprisoned person, we could totally just "imprison" people in a quite nice 4-room apartment and let them live as normal lives as possible while keeping them separated from others.
Let them get groceries delivered, have normal (if monitored) subscriptions and internet access, and go on walks with an actually friendly warden who just keeps an eye on them while actively trying to make the person feel normal.

even nordic prisons which are famous for being not inhumane are still quite terrible places to be, largely because we can't be arsed to spend more money than what we consider bare minimum to not qualify as torture.

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[–] captainlezbian@lemmy.world 45 points 2 weeks ago (10 children)

One of the most important questions you can ask yourself when you start thinking like this is: will further punishment help? Added bonus for actually looking up if it will, because it turns out there's research on it.

I don't want pedophiles to suffer nearly as much as I want them to not hurt children. And if not hurting children levels are the same I'd rather the justice system be fully and wholly dedicated to rehabilitation and taking the most possible care of its wards.

There's been an obsession in the past decade or two with crime and punishment and it's become bipartisan and terrifying. It's part of the fascistic milleu where there's a growing cruelty and "us vs them" thinking in all levels of society.

[–] absentbird@lemmy.world 16 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

There is a tragically high recidivism rate for sexual predators, which is probably the best argument for long sentences: there aren't many opportunities to abuse children in prison.

Though the American rehabilitation system is pretty weak in general, other nations have had much better results. Norway has a sex crime recidivism rate below 10% (vs 67% in the US).

[–] cassandrafatigue@lemmy.dbzer0.com 12 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

So the solution still isn't punishment?

[–] absentbird@lemmy.world 10 points 2 weeks ago

Yeah, the solution is to have a functioning rehabilitation system. But in the US, with the system we currently have, it doesn't seem to make a difference how long you keep them there. We actually have a higher recidivism from our rehabilitation than from doing nothing at all.

So, in order of effectiveness:

Effective rehabilitation
Nothing
American prison system

The only benefit to a long sentence is that it reduces the number of years they can spend harming children, though there's a fairly high chance they abuse fellow inmates instead, who could then become abusers themselves once they get out, so the whole thing is fucked and stupid.

[–] lmmarsano@lemmynsfw.com 4 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (2 children)

tragically high recidivism rate for sexual predators

I've seen that debunked as a myth, so we shouldn't be so confident. A quick web search reveals a review of crime statistics finding lower than average recidivism rates & a comprehensive overview of the scientific literature finding the older studies that drew your conclusion to be fundamentally flawed & the concept of a base rate of sexual recidivism to be built on sand (unfounded assumptions driven by biased pseudoscience & government pressure rather than science). The latter includes gems like

The risk paradigm faced serious criticism for its portrayal of all individuals convicted of sex crimes as having fixed and continuing propensities to commit sexual offenses (e.g., Soothill, 2010), particularly given the relatively low recidivism rates reported in numerous studies.

When homologous recidivism (i.e., recidivism involving the same offense type) is examined, sexual recidivism rates are not just relatively low but some of the lowest across types of crime (e.g., Langan et al., 2003).

It also points out that the definition of sexual offense is a moving target since research began, especially with conduct that was an offense before & is now legal.

[–] absentbird@lemmy.world 6 points 2 weeks ago

Huh, well I took criminology in 2006 so I guess I'm out of date on that. I'm glad it's not as bad as expected; I still think the US in particular has a long way to go in regards to rehabilitation.

It's also strangely cultural, where it seems that some countries have substantially lower rates of offenders and others much higher. It just seems like the systems here perpetuate the crimes in a way; like the abuse of children is this curse inherent to capitalistic christian patriarchy.

[–] chonglibloodsport@lemmy.world 3 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

The key word here is predator. Not everyone who commits a sex offence is a predator. You can be convicted of a sex crime for public urination.

A sexual predator is pretty much a serial offender by definition. So the claim that these people would have high recidivism rates should not be surprising.

[–] lmmarsano@lemmynsfw.com 2 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (1 children)

The key word here is predator.

Not much of one. Is there a reliable scientific definition for it & is there good quality scientific research supporting your claim that isn't outdated?

If your definition of predator is tautological (eg, those highly likely to reoffend), then why limit your argument to only sexual predators?

As pointed out by the comprehensive overview linked before, a problem with your claim is that there is no static & fixed propensity to reoffend even when narrowed by type of offense. The idea of a static & fixed propensity first began to unravel when researchers noticed risk to reoffend vary with offender age

The first was the issue of offender age—the idea that risk of sexual recidivism is age dependent had been overlooked in previous research (e.g., Barbaree et al., 2003), and work in this area became something of a precursor to the ideas and research that followed (e.g., Lussier & Healey, 2009).

Then they noticed rates vary by their developmental periods

Examining recidivism rates across developmental periods raised clear challenges to the idea of a static propensity to offend for all offenders.

Examining dynamic aspects of human lives led researchers to reconsider

whether a person's level of risk remains stable over time (e.g., whether a high-risk offender always remains at a high risk to reoffend) (e.g., Thornton et al., 2021).

The field of correctional psychology stressed the importance of dynamic risk factors responsible for criminal recidivism (e.g., Hanson & Harris, 2000), and developmental and life-course researchers emphasized the dynamic aspects of offending (e.g., Lussier et al., 2021a). Central to the paradigm shift is the idea that the risk of sexual reoffending is more dynamic than previously thought: it can change over time and across developmental stages and can fluctuate according to life circumstances.

Newer research finds these dynamic risk factors affect the rate of sexual recidivism, which can reach quite low, so it isn't simply a fixed, static rate.

Predicting who will be a sexual recidivist (if that concept is scientifically valid) isn't straightforward, so a tautological definition of predator doesn't get us far.

[–] chonglibloodsport@lemmy.world 2 points 2 weeks ago

It wasn’t my argument. You originally replied to someone else. I think the statement is almost a tautology.

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[–] StarvingMartist@sh.itjust.works 39 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

I actually believe in rehabilitation for pedophiles. This absolutely floors some people. Im sure some of you will not understand this post either.

Pedophiles do not deserve death.

That is not how we stop the problem. Pedophilia is a symptom of a more systemic issue and if these people have a massive fear of being lynched, guess what will not happen? They will not reach out to mental health professionals or crisis counsellors. Plenty of people have a specific form of OCD that pushes intrusive, unwanted, pedophilic thoughts into their head. Plenty are just ashamed and want to stop but have no one to speak to.

If someone has these thoughts and has not acted on them, I see no reason why they need to be killed other than you think too emotionally and not logically.

If you want to take this rhetoric you had better be willing to back it up and actually look at the "what if I actually took this stance rather than using it for a metaphor to platform my cause on?"

[–] cassandrafatigue@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

Okay but if I'm not talking about killing pedophiles, how will I virtue signal to the rest of my Klan?

And if we're actually stopping pedophilia, then why the hell did I bother having twenty kids?

-every american

[–] olafurp@lemmy.world 26 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Prisoner's rights are human rights too.

[–] cassandrafatigue@lemmy.dbzer0.com 7 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

No but see I dont consider prisoners human so its fine.

[–] GreyEyedGhost@lemmy.ca 4 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Dehumanizing people - it's not just for Nazis anymore!

[–] cassandrafatigue@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (4 children)

Well, scratch a liberal...

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[–] HasturInYellow@lemmy.world 5 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

The bad crime is oppression of someone else. That's it. Anything else, rehabilitate. You willfully abuse and oppress someone from living their life? Dead.

I'm so tired of these ghouls getting off Scott free in the name of healing. I want them all to face justice.

[–] WorldsDumbestMan@lemmy.today 6 points 2 weeks ago

That would include like half my family and most of my co-workers. Chill a bit.

[–] Hadriscus@jlai.lu 4 points 2 weeks ago

Good god is this frustrating to read lol

At least great example of teaching on OP's part. Calm, explanatory, respectful

[–] WorldsDumbestMan@lemmy.today 4 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Trump may not have committed any unique crime, but I think he should get a special punishment if he is ever brought to justice.

The evil people of this world need to know that they WILL get consequences for their crimes. They need to feel it, it needs to be so traumatic, that they beg others not to do it too.

[–] Revan343@lemmy.ca 4 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Trump doesn't need any special punishment; he needs the prescribed punishment for the treason of which he is guilty.

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[–] DeathByBigSad@sh.itjust.works 3 points 2 weeks ago

Kira is evil, except for the killings I approve of. xD

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