this post was submitted on 15 Aug 2025
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[–] wulrus@lemmy.world 4 points 3 hours ago* (last edited 3 hours ago)

Interesting what he wrote about LLMs' inability to "zoom out" and see the whole picture. I use Gemini and ChatGPT sometimes to help debug admin / DevOps problems. It's a great help for extra input, a bit like rubberducking on steroids.

Examples how it went:

Problem: Apache-cluster and connected KeyCloak-Cluster, odd problems with loginflow. Reducing KeyCloak to 1 node solves it, so it says that we need to debug node communication and how to set the debug log settings. A lot of analysis together. But after a while, it's pretty obvious that the Apache-cluster doesn't use the sticky session correctly and forwards requests to the wrong KeyCloak node in the middle of the login flow. LLM does not see that, wanted to continue to dig deeper and deeper into supposedly "odd" details of the communication between KeyCloak nodes, althought the combined logs of all nodes show that the error was in load balancing.

Problem: Apache from a different cluster often returns 413 (payload too large). Indeed it happens with pretty large requests, the limit where it happens is a big over 8kB without the body. But the incoming request is valid. So I ask both Gemini and ChatGPT for a complete list of things that cause Apache to do that. It does a decent job at that. And one of it is close: It says to check for mod_proxy_ajp use, since that observed limit could be caused by trying to make an AJP package to communicate with backchannel servers. It was not the cause; the actual mod was mod_jk, which also uses AJP. It helped me focus on watching out for anything using AJP when reviewing the whole config manually, so I found it, and the "rubberducking" helped indirectly. But the LLM said we must forget about AJP and focus on other possible causes - a dead end. When I told it the solution, it was like: Of course mod_jk. (413 sounds like the request TO the apache is wrong, but actually, it tries internally to create an invalid AJP package over 8kB, and when it fails blames the incoming request.)

[–] dantheclamman@lemmy.world 17 points 15 hours ago (3 children)

LLMs are useful to provide generic examples of how a function works. This is something that would previously take an hour of searching the docs and online forums, but the LLM can do for very quickly, and I appreciate. But I have a library I want to use that was just updated with entirely new syntax. The LLMs are pretty much useless for it. Back to the docs I go! Maybe my terrible code will help to train the model. And in my field (marine biogeochemistry), the LLM generally cannot understand the nuances of what I'm trying to do. Vibe coding is impossible. And I doubt the training set will ever be large or relevant enough for the vibe coding to be feasible.

[–] drmoose@lemmy.world 1 points 5 hours ago (2 children)

Thats simply not true. LLMs with RAG can easily catch up with new library changes.

[–] jj4211@lemmy.world 2 points 2 hours ago (1 children)

Subjectively speaking, I don't see it so that good a job of being current or priortizing current over older.

While RAG is the way to give LLM a shot at staying current, I just didn't see it doing that good a job with library documentation. Maybe it can do all right with tweaks like additional properties or arguments, but more structural changes to libraries I just don't see being handled.

[–] drmoose@lemmy.world 1 points 1 hour ago

Thats a lot on implementation of the LLM engine . For python or js you can feed the API schema of the entire virtual environment.

[–] Occhioverde@feddit.it 2 points 4 hours ago* (last edited 4 hours ago)

Yes and no.

In many cases (like for the Gradle DSL, that even if it can be either the old Groovy-based one or the new Kotlin-based one, you will always be able to find extensive documentation and examples in the wild for both of them) it is sufficient to specify which version you're using and, as long as this doesn't get too far in its context window forcing you to repeat it, you are good to go.

But for niche libraries that have recently undergone significant refactors with the majority of the tutorials and examples still built with past versions, they have a huge bias towards the old syntax, making it really difficult - if not impossible - to make them use the new functions (at least for ChatGPT and GitHub Copilot with the "Web search" functionality on).

[–] Evotech@lemmy.world 1 points 5 hours ago

You can't know without checking though, it may be wrong

[–] corsicanguppy@lemmy.ca 11 points 14 hours ago

Vibe coding

The term for that is actually 'slopping'. Kthx ;-)

[–] Wispy2891@lemmy.world 14 points 19 hours ago (2 children)

Note: this comes from someone that makes a (very good) ide which they only monetize with an AI subscription so it's interesting to see their take

(They use Claude opus like all the others so the results are similar)

[–] ExLisper@lemmy.curiana.net 2 points 2 hours ago

I think AI in you IDE is meant to help you with small things while AI agents are supposed to do development for you. If people will start using AI agents they won't need IDEs so this take is consistent with their business model.

[–] GreenKnight23@lemmy.world 2 points 16 hours ago (1 children)

in one regard I can understand, they're running a business and don't want to be at a disadvantage against their competition.

on the other hand have some conviction for your product, otherwise I will lose confidence that your product is as good as your marketing makes it seem.

[–] jj4211@lemmy.world 1 points 1 hour ago* (last edited 1 hour ago)

They are still bullish on LLM, just to augment rather than displace human suggested development.

This perspective is quite consistent with the need for a product that manages prompting/context for a human user and helps the human review and integrate the LLM supplied content in a reasonable way.

If LLM were as useful as some of the fanatics say, you'd just use a generic prompt and it would poop out the finished project. This is by the way the perspective of an executive I talked to not long ago, that he was going to be able to let go of all his "coders" and feed his "insight" directly into a prompt that will do it all for him instead. He is also easily influenced so articles like this can reshape him into a more tenable position, after which he'll pretend he never thought a generic prompt would be good enough

[–] antihumanitarian@lemmy.world 11 points 20 hours ago (1 children)

LLMs have made it really clear when previous concepts actually grouped things that were distinct. Not so long ago, Chess was thought to be uniquely human, until it wasn't, and language was thought to imply intelligence behind it, until it wasn't.

So let's separate out some concerns and ask what exactly we mean by engineering. To me, engineering means solving a problem. For someone, for myself, for theory, whatever. Why do we want to solve the problem, what we want to do to solve the problem, and how we do that often blurred together. Now, AI can supply the how in abundance. Too much abundance, even. So humans should move up the stack, focus on what problem to solve and why we want to solve it. Then, go into detail to describe what that solution looks like. So for example, making a UI in Figma or writing a few sentences on how a user would actually do the thing. Then, hand that off to the AI once you think it's sufficiently defined.

The author misses a step in the engineering loop that's important though. Plans almost always involve hidden assumptions and undefined or underdefined behavior that implementation will uncover. Even more so with AI, you can't just throw a plan and expect good results, the humans need to come back, figure out what was underdefined or not actually what they wanted, and update the plan. People can 'imagine' rotating an apple in their head, but most of them will fail utterly if asked to draw it; they're holding the idea of rotating an apple, not actually rotating the apple, and application forces realization of the difference.

[–] hunnybubny@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 3 hours ago

The author misses a step in the engineering loop that's important though. Plans almost always involve hidden assumptions and undefined or underdefined behavior that implementation will uncover.

His whole point is two mental models and a model delta. Exactly what you just described.

[–] humanspiral@lemmy.ca 11 points 23 hours ago

I've done a test of 8 LLMs, on coding. It was using the J language, asking all of them to generate a chess "mate in x solver"

Even the bad models were good at organizing code, and had some understanding of chess, were good at understanding the ideas in their prompts. The bad models were bad mostly on logic. Not understanding indexing/amend on a table, not understanding proper function calling, or proper decomposition of arguments in J. Bad models included copilot and openAI's 120g open source model. kimi k2 was ok. Sonet 4 the best. I've mostly used Qwen 3 245 for better free accessibility than Sonet 4, and the fact that it has a giant context that makes it think harder (slower) and better the more its used on a problem. Qwen 3 did a good job in writing a fairly lengthy chess position scoring function, and then separating it into 2 quick and medium function, incorporating self written library code, and recommending enhancements.

There is a lot to get used to in working with LLMs, but the right ones, can generally help with code writting process. ie. there exists some code outputs which even when wrong, provide a faster path to objectives than if that code output did not exist. No matter how bad the code outputs, you are almost never dumber for having received it, unless perhaps you don't understand the language well enough to know its bad.

I don't work in IT, but I do know you need creativity to work in the industry, something which the current LLM/AI doesn't possess.

Linguists also dismiss LLMs in similar vein because LLMs can't grasp context. It is always funny to be sarcastic and ironic on an LLM.

Soft skills and culture are what that the current iteration of LLMs lack. However, I do think there is still huge potential for AI development in dacades to come, but I want this AI bubble to burst as "in your face" to companies.

[–] TuffNutzes@lemmy.world 105 points 1 day ago (20 children)

The LLM worship has to stop.

It's like saying a hammer can build a house. No, it can't.

It's useful to pound in nails and automate a lot of repetitive and boring tasks but it's not going to build the house for you - architect it, plan it, validate it.

It's similar to the whole 3D printing hype. You can 3D print a house! No you can't.

You can 3D print a wall, maybe a window.

Then have a skilled Craftsman put it all together for you, ensure fit and finish and essentially build the final product.

[–] frog_brawler@lemmy.world 5 points 1 day ago (1 children)

You’re making a great analogy with the 3D printing of a house.

However, if we consider the 3D printed house scenario; that skilled craftsman is now able to do things on his own that he would have needed a team for in the past. Most, if not all, of the less skilled members of that team are not getting any experience within the craft at that point. They’re no longer necessary when one skilled person can now do things on their own.

What happens when the skilled and highly experienced craftsmen that use AI as a supplemental tool (and subsequently earn all the work) eventually retire, and there’s been no juniors or mid-levels for a while? No one is really going to be qualified without having had exposure to the trade for several years.

[–] TuffNutzes@lemmy.world 5 points 23 hours ago (1 children)

Absolutely. This is a huge problem and I've read about this very problem from a number of sources. This will have a huge impact on engineering and information work.

Interestingly enough, A similar shortage occurred in the trades when information work was up and coming and the trades were shunned as a career path for many. Now we don't have enough plumbers and electricians. Trades are now finding their the skills in high demand and charging very high rates.

[–] ChokingHazard@lemmy.world 3 points 21 hours ago (1 children)

The trades problem is a typical small business problem with toxic work environments. I knew plenty that washed out of the trades because of that. The “nobody wants to work anymore” tradesmen but really it’s “nobody wants to work with me for what I’m willing to pay”

[–] TuffNutzes@lemmy.world 4 points 21 hours ago* (last edited 21 hours ago)

I don't doubt that that's a problem either in some of those small businesses.

I have a great electrician that I call all the time. He's probably in his late 60s. It's definitely more of a rough and tumble work environment than IT work, for sure, but he's a good guy and he pays his people well and he charges me an arm and a leg.

But we talk about it and he tells me about how the same work he would have charged a quarter the price just 10 years ago. And honestly, he's one of the more affordable ones.

So it definitely seems like the trades is the place to be these days with so few good ones around. But yeah you have to pick and choose who's mentoring you.

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