For posting all the anonymous reactionary bullshit that you can't post anywhere else.
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(Source. Spotted here. For the context wherein Trump applied the stereotype, see here.)
Remember: words like ‘intifada’, phrases like ‘from the river to the sea’, and even stuffed animals in the form of octopodes are all ways of secretly calling for another Shoah, no matter how many times Palestinians say otherwise. On the other hand, when a Herzlian like Trump applies an infamous stereotype to somebody…
I feel like these chickens are gonna come home to roost eventually. Rising antisemitism is real among right-wingers, and it's easy to see how chuds could believe "Jews control the media" narratives when every politician ever is seemingly bending over backwards to serve Israel. Many "America First" chuds are upset that their guys are prioritizing a foreign country over their own.
There's gonna come a turning point where the Zionist entity falls or support is no longer beneficial to the US, at that point right-wing figures will no longer pretend to care about antisemitism and I fear all hell will break loose for Jews in the West.
I'd argue the blowback is very real for antizionist (and even nonzionist) Jews. Zionist Jews made something of a Faustian bargain where they'd be allowed a voice and a platform in AmeriKKKa at the expense of every other Jew that feels negatively towards Israel. Effectively, they've created an acceptable way to be Jewish, like how white supremacists hold East Asians as "model minorities" for everyone else to emulate (or else).
Looking at how antizionist Jews are currently treated, it's hard to say how much of this only exists as a subconscious phenomenon and how much is already material.
What’s a non Zionist Jew? Is that like a “neither for or against” position?
It means they're in opposition to Israel and are commonly derided by the Zionists.
I guess I’m confused about how that’s distinct from anti Zionism. Wikipedia says they support Jewish settlement in Palestine but won’t come on aliyah? Sounds like Zionism with extra steps
There is not a really clear line between "non-Zionist" and "anti-Zionist" but, with Zionism being a political ideology and Judaism being a religion, a "non-Zionist Jew" could be used to describe a member of the Jewish religion whose Jewish identity and religious belief does not involve any Zionism while an "anti-Zionist Jew" is a Jewish person who takes an affirmative political or ideological stance against Zionism. And of course there would be significant overlap between the two.
So “opposition to Israel” would be antizionist (including non Zionist anti Zionists), but those who solely identify as nonzionist would, to me, fall in the “neither for or against” ethnostate fencesitting.
I think opposition to Israel - as in "Israel should not exist as a "Jewish State"" - is anti-Zionism. I think "fence sitting" could be a bit harsh on non-Zionists if applied to all of them. "Israel has nothing to do with me and I have nothing to do with Israel why are you even asking me about it?" could be an example of a legitimate non-Zionist position that is not fence sitting (especially outside of the US, where your other status as a US tax-payer puts you back squarely in the middle of the issue).
As an illustration, if a person from, say, Honduras said "I don't understand the Russia/Ukraine thing, it has nothing to do with me, it is on the other side of the world" would you say they are "fence sitting"? Even if their great-great-great-great grandfather was Ukrainian?
I think the point I'm trying to make about non-Zionist Jews is that there is no affirmative obligation for someone to be involved in or have a deep understanding of the politics and ideology of Zionism solely because they are Jewish. In the US, UK, and Palestine, not having a position on that becomes harder to justify, not because of one's Jewishness but because of one's participation in the political system that supports Zionism.
Maybe I’m blinded by the western positionality, but dusting your hands and saying “nothing to do with me” re the apartheid state that’s doing the genocide in the name of your religion does seem like fencesitting. Obviously Israel is lying and weaponizing Judaism, but declaring yourself non-Zionist seems to opt out of the argument entirely
I think you're entitled to think of it this way for westerners. The way I became aware of the distinction at all was because of Judith Butler explaining their position (they consider themself a liberal zionist so obviously take all of it with a grain of salt, never let the enemy define the terms etc etc). You'd probably be right to say that, in the US and Europe, a nonzionist and a zionist are the same person but just at different stages of embarrassment.
I assume they mean apolitical Jews. Not every Jew on earth is plugged into politics and even knows what Zionism is, especially those in non-western nations
What percentage of Jews worldwide do you think have never heard of the state of Israel, or the concept of Zionism?
No idea, but it sounds like a very funny Mel Brooks bit.
There is bleed-over of this into liberal/baby left spaces as well, starting with the "Israel dictates to America, actually" theory. This is just one step removed from an antisemitic conspiracy theory. At its base is just confused liberalism, but by getting the nature of the relationship reversed they remove blame and action from the dominant partner, the country in which most of these people live and could take action, and replace it with a far away enemy that is controlling "us", with the main "action" being to spread this idea and nothing more.
OK, yes, but also Israel and Israelis must be held accountable for their their inhumane cruelty.
It is not antisemitic to say that while Israel does the US bidding, their methods on the ground are distinctly evil.
Of course. The two are partners. They are not really at odds, fundamentally. Settlers and imperialists alike tied together with mutual interests.
Idk if its distinct enough from what the US has done in Iraq or Afghanistan
This is the rub isn't it? White colonist Jews in pissrael are totally fine with antisemitism and even engage in it themselves so long as their genocidal project remains unchecked. Trump could post the happy merchant on truthsocial tomorrow and fucking treatlerite Podman here would be like "hell yeah based".
It's a prime example of the utter cynicism of fascists
The Zionists are getting what they want (expansion of Zionist territory), so it does not matter if the world is becoming more antisemitic
If anything, it also plays into their end goal of a world where Judaism is completely defined on their terms
They support the world becoming more hostile to diaspora Jews. They support the spread of antisemitism because it will drive more Jews into the arms of Israel.
To be clear, a lot of Israeli jews are not “white,” they’re just settler colonists and religious supremacists. Claiming that every Israeli is an Eastern European doesn’t really hold up any more, statistically
The syntax suggested that they are talking about a subset of Jewish people in Israel, not all of them, and it's certainly true that the Euro subset hold something of a dominant position and have long been discriminatory to the ME Jewish populations within Israel who make up most of its population.
Are non-white Jews in Israel substantially more antizionist? Or do they go along with the project despite the internal discrimination? My understanding was that Zionist supporters in Israel were not divided by whiteness, but by Jewish and non-Jewish
I imagine there is any difference, but you are right that the main division is between the Jewish and non-Jewish populations. I wasn't trying to address Zionism, which is extremely popular among basically the entire Jewish population of Israel by every demographic (though perhaps not in the small minorities who they forcibly sterilized, but that's just a guess).
Every Israeli in the high levels of power is Eastern European. Every single Prime Minister of Israel has been Eastern European in lineage
Yeah they accept Sephardi and Mizrahi Jews into the country, but they aren’t the ones at the highest level running the show with the American connects - that’s all Ashkenazi. Even within the Jewish supremacist system, among the jews there is a white supremacist hierarchy as well.
There is no bottom
makes sense. zionists are prioritising material conditions over correct doctrine, same as how if a politician were running on socialising the means of production but saying dumb shit about 'patriotism' or whatever, we'd still be in favour. this is objectively the correct take for a zionist to have. honestly i can kind of admire the practicality, in a strange way
Right. Similar to a socialist saying “Cuba is expanding rights for LGBTQ+ populations, I don’t care if Diaz-Canal makes a crass gay joke”. If they are materially doing what we want, then everything else is just window dressing
Worst of the Pod Johns
Shut up, cracker.
Wait wait wait, I thought it was just him using it wrong or not knowing it was antisemitic. They already dropped that and are admitting how bad it is for Trump to use something even Shakespeare was using as a racist/antisemitic term?
octopodes
This word just confuses me. It's clearly an attempt to be "more correct" about the word octopuses but we don't apply Greek plural forms to Greek derived words in English. We don't say bishopoi, philosophoi etc. And why not "Octopia" or "Octopedion" if we really want to do it Greek style?
Octopodeez nuts
Huh I wonder if -dion in greek relates to the same suffix for certain plural words in Welsh 🤔🤔🤔
I wouldn't know, but it would be fun if it were the case. Are the words in question of Greek/Latin/General Roman origin?
So it appears it breaks down to -ion
eg. dynion - men,
meibion - sons,
cymdogion - neighbours
which comes from Proto-Brythonic, which itself is mainly influenced by Latin externally, so likely a coincidence. Then again, you go back far enough and it's all Proto-indo-European I guess.
We can fix this by switching the word to octopod, with the plural being octopods.
or we can call them octopeds, like with bipeds and quadrupeds. Octopedes (like centipede and millipede) may be okay as well.
Edit: the Ancient Greek plural, though, really is ὀκτώποδες, or octopodes, not octopia or octopedion.
We don't say bishopoi, philosophoi etc.
oi
