this post was submitted on 23 Feb 2025
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[–] CouncilOfFriends@slrpnk.net 2 points 1 hour ago* (last edited 1 hour ago)

I'm confused by anyone who demands Ukraine should cede territory and denies they can ever join NATO. Have fun seeing Crimean/Ukrainian/etc. conflicts repeat every few years while Russia keeps learning the lesson that imperialism is back in style. Are these people literal children, or Russian bots?

Ukraine agreed to give up their nukes as part of the Budapest Memorandum which Russia shat on, and the United States showed how little their security assurances were worth. The sad reality now is Ukraine could be admitted to NATO tomorrow and it would not matter one bit, because our current president believes himself a king who cannot be forced to abide any previous treaty, law, or norm of human decency.

[–] donuts@lemmy.world 90 points 14 hours ago (22 children)

Quite possibly the best answer to the Putin talking point (and therefore, Trump's talking point) that he's a dictator.

A dictator would never offer to step down. I hope the people see it for what it is. We all know Putin will be unfazed and continue anyway.

[–] Majestic@lemmy.ml -2 points 4 hours ago* (last edited 4 hours ago) (1 children)

A dictator would never offer to step down.

Not good logic regardless of whether you think Zelensky is or is not a dictator. A dictator might if the terms he demanded for it were those that both parties of the conflict had already ruled out.

Making an impossible ask is hardly a sign of being reasonable or truly willing to do a thing. If I tell you I'll give you ten million dollars but only if you can settle the mess in Palestine with the the "israeli" state and the Palestinian people permanently I'm not seriously offering you ten million dollars, my ask is impossible. No one would say it's a good faith offer on my part.

Trump's team has acknowledged NATO is not viable and doesn't even want to commit US troops in the event of a ceasefire (something Russia refuses anyways), preferring it be a Europe problem and Russia categorically will not accept Ukraine in NATO. This is a FACT.

This conflict started over eastward NATO expansion, one of the primary, if not the most primary goals of Russia in their fight is to stop Ukraine from becoming part of NATO and stationing western weapons/troops there near them.

Russia is winning and the support of the US is waning. They are not going to accept having spent all that treasure and blood and taken all these sanctions and in the end not get their primary goal just to get Zelensky to step down for another person who hates Russia.

[–] CouncilOfFriends@slrpnk.net 2 points 1 hour ago

Trump will acknowledge any fucking thing Putin says you absolute simpleton.

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[–] MechKit@beehaw.org 71 points 15 hours ago (5 children)

This is standard dictator behavior, giving up power for the benefit of their people.

[–] exu@feditown.com 22 points 14 hours ago (4 children)

I think you're being downvoted because you're missing the /s

[–] ocean@lemmy.selfhostcat.com 24 points 12 hours ago* (last edited 12 hours ago) (1 children)

If this needs to add /s then the downvotes have room temperature IQ.

[–] tenchiken@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 5 hours ago (1 children)
[–] echodot@feddit.uk 2 points 5 hours ago

Well a meat locker is a kind of room.

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[–] destiper@lemmy.ml 1 points 14 hours ago
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[–] mercano@lemmy.world 44 points 14 hours ago

The man can get his country into NATO, I’d say he has earned his retirement.

[–] Drewfro66@lemmygrad.ml 30 points 14 hours ago (4 children)

Zelensky offers to give up something he's about to lose anyways in order to gain something that isn't going to happen.

[–] sleeplessone@lemmy.ml 2 points 4 hours ago* (last edited 4 hours ago)

Dude just wants to snort coke and play pianos with his peen in peace.

[–] bennieandthez@lemmygrad.ml 11 points 8 hours ago

bro just can't wait to move to miami florida

[–] davel@lemmy.ml 19 points 14 hours ago

I think he’s trying to gain not dying of sudden lead poisoning.

[–] Grapho@lemmy.ml 10 points 14 hours ago

Brave and powerful 😭

[–] Ghostalmedia@lemmy.world 27 points 14 hours ago
[–] gressen@lemm.ee 9 points 14 hours ago (5 children)

Is NATO membership still a valid goal to pursue?

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 21 points 13 hours ago

Obviously not since the agreement amongst existing members has to be unanimous.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 17 points 13 hours ago

"Valid" as in feasible? No. The war was started to keep Ukraine out of NATO, and Ukraine wasn't fully backed by NATO in the war because it isn't willing to go to war with Russia just for Ukraine.

[–] Sodium_nitride@lemmygrad.ml 17 points 13 hours ago (1 children)

The whole war was started because the Russians consider Ukraine in nato to be their red line, and the war was lost by Ukraine because the NATO leadership never seriously considered putting Ukraine in NATO if that meant direct war with Russia.

So no, it isn't a realistic goal at all. The war ends only when either

  1. The Ukrainian state collapses
  2. A deal is made in which Ukraine does not join NATO
  3. Ukraine pushes back Russian forces so much that they collapse the Russian government.

Scenario 2 seems to be the most likely outcome.

[–] Grapho@lemmy.ml 5 points 5 hours ago

Shit, 1. ain't looking that unlikely either, give it a few years with the amount of debt it was forced to take up.

[–] tomatolung@lemmy.world 6 points 13 hours ago (1 children)

I'm not an expert, but have read a decent amount on this. Others may have more and better info.

With that said, even if an Article 5 invocation won't bring the US into your fight, it provides a hefty infrastructure of value to countries in it. From basing, to logistics, to intelligence, to aid, it is valuable. Now the politics of it are complicated and the US can hinder some of that value, but it still means that in Europe if Russia provides an Article 5 reason, other countries in NATO can choose to help in various forms. That's not nothing. It's also faster and less arduous then negotiating individual defense treaties with neighbors and others.

So yes, overall probably still worth it. Even if just as an entree into other alliances.

[–] Quill7513@slrpnk.net 7 points 13 hours ago (1 children)

i think the thread starter question is more about if nato is even about to continue existing

[–] Skyrmir@lemmy.world 0 points 10 hours ago (1 children)

From what I'm seeing out of Germany, NATO isn't going anywhere. The US might not be a continuing part of it.

Also there's still an off chance China might play a part in Ukraine. They have Putin by the short and curlies, and could offer a better deal than the US for mineral rights. It might hinge on if Trump pisses off Xi with this trade war crap, or gets in the way of him taking Taiwan.

[–] Grapho@lemmy.ml 1 points 5 hours ago* (last edited 5 hours ago)

Sure, in the way The Spiders From Mars didn't go anywhere after Bowie fucked off.

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