My go to dunk is that there's zero Muslim majority nation that has even produced a comment on the Uyghur thing. It's 100% coming from Western nations with recent history of wars in the Middle East and Islamophobia.
And going this route, you find out whether your lib is a well meaning but politically naive potential comrade, or if they're a racist, chauvinistic chud.
On reddit you'll probably mostly get the latter. The chuddier libs love falling over themselves to talk about how literally every single Muslim majority country is governed without the consent of its people by theocratic despots who are fully supported and propped up by Chinese bribes. Just wild conspiracy shit like this rehashing the oldest racist tropes in the book without the slightest hint of self awareness.
These days I just give them the and tell them to shut up. Pretty much all of the Uyghur libs I know have been complete ass on Gaza and i have exactly zero patience for their fake tears.
Pretty much all of the Uyghur libs I know have been complete ass on Gaza
Been my experience exactly
If you go to feddit.org (don't actually, this is just a thought exercise) you will see a lot good takes on gaza but still the uighur genocide lies. They have this one poster who I'm 08.15% sure is employed by NED because of the frequency of the china hating articles they post. But nothing on Gaza, completely abandoned that point.
You talking about people you talk to in person or ate you talking about people online?
I don't believe I have ever, and I do mean ever, met a person irl who cared enough about the "Uyghur genocide" to mention it if I'm (lightly) glazing China. Typically it's not even glazing. Just "so... why and how can China, the "inferior" nation, build high speed rail across their massive country but the mighty US can't? Shouldn't we do it too just to prove we're number one?"
There was definitely a solid ~1 year when it was mentioned non-stop online by the same dipshits who will bring up double genocide rhetoric to "discredit" the USSR. Or those who deny the crimes of the Israelis. Or, hell, those who deny the crimes of the objectively worst of all offenders... the USA. But even many "on the left" in the first world are not ready to touch the subject of the crimes of the US/EU/NATO before 1945 and especially since then. It's much easier to condemn the "totally, actually, independent and foreign nation of Israel." And then once you get that, well, they've already admitted to some of the crimes of the US right there even if they don't know it yet. But, I've gone off topic... oh well
Pretty cool idea but I feel like I'd like to actually educate people who are willing to listen.
People only ever bring up Xinjiang to dismiss China. It's nothing more than a trump card: "Oh, you think we should be less hostile toward China and listen to the Chinese? Uyghur genocide Taiwan independence Hong Kong protests Tiananmen square!!!"
You're never going to get through to people without confronting their chauvinism first because they can always pull another reason to hate China out of their ass. Part of that is investigating why they want to believe against China in the first place. Is it cope? Scapegoating? Plain racism?
Is it cope? Scapegoating? Plain racism?
Does anti-communist brainworms count?
I just don't get it, like okay, be anti-commie if you want, but why the fuck do you want to overthrow foreign governments? It's hypocritical coming from supposedly pro-peace libs.
Because they’ll all be replaced by wholesome 100 keanu chungus pupperino western european style governments with perfect scores in the Freedom Eagle Democracy Ranking, just ask Yeltsin
China is as real as Mordor to most of us, it's an idea that needs to exist in order for people to feel better about themselves
There always needs to be a greater evil to hold the US up against. This is the only thing keeping the guns pointed at the rabble rousers instead of the reptiles in their marble buildings in D.C. People will not only accept, but defend any atrocity as long as they think the alternative is worse.
Do a google image search with them for “Uyghur genocide.” There is absolutely nothing there, aside from a picture published by the Chinese government of some grumpy dudes sitting in a prison yard. Then compare this with an image search for Gaza. This worked with one lib I knew in the past. He doesn’t talk about the Uyghur genocide anymore. But he is still a fucking lib.
There is also an uncut YouTube video out there of someone walking around Urumqi I think and just watching people speak Uyghur and chill out. Hardly seems genocidal.
Either China has the most sophisticated censorship apparatus ever conceived of where they can prevent any and all photos or videos from leaving the country....or there just isn't an ethnic cleansing happening at all. It's pretty hard for libs to believe in a genocide in China when you point to stuff coming out of Palestine. Even videos from Ukraine can be found of Russians doing awful shit (and vice versa). Or just Abu Ghraib.
There's always people whose conscious gets the better of them and will leak things like this happening. It happened during the Holocaust, Bosnian War, Rwandan genocide, etc. Of course, you get absolutely brainwormed libs who will say "because the Chinese are genetically prone to genocide and everything there is worse than 1986 holodoor."
"put them all in concentration camps and killed them"
At some point I feel like they're self confessing their own thoughts about how to treat ethnic minorities and projecting onto china. You might have just been talking to a cryptofash.
I've been successful since I'm also Muslim and I can accuse them of islamophobia and only caring about Muslims when it's convenient in Xinjiang but "bad optics" in Palestine.
How could there be a genocide if no one was killed?
Maybe I'm actually crazy, but there was a time like a year or two ago when it seemed like the US actually gave up all pretenses and admitted it was bullshit? (edit:I should say it later seemed like this may have been reversed). I distinctly remember a collective cathartic sigh on then Twitter that the uyghur slander thing was FINALLY coming to an end. I definitely remember a NED tweet from well before then basically laying claim to supporting sowing extremism in the region, but I could also swear there was a major outlet expose (maybe multiple exposes) months later detailing all the state department bullshit surrounding the situation (e.g. deliberately mistranslating/mislabeling "job centres" to torture camps or something to that effect, and so on)
Pretty sure they did, the state department said it didn't happen or at least there was no evidence, and then they picked right back up again
Watch them go right back to it after genociding muslims in gaza for real.
It seems to have died down in the news (I mean not really — the recent NATO War summit has shifted the anti-China narrative in the media to "China is militarily supporting Russia") but a lot of generic TV slop tries to insert China bad narratives in episodes.
You'd think we'd have a leftist wiki with a page on a subject like this with a sentence about an event like this with citation(s).
https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Xinjiang_Vocational_Education_and_Training_Centers Ask and ye shall receive.
I go "how could you be worried about China at a time like this, with Saddam Hussein getting closer and closer to obtaining a nuke"
To be less facetious, it's easier now that we see what an actual genocide looks like in Palestine, you can just ask "If these impoverished people with unreliable communications to the outside world still have smartphones and internet, if they can upload their suffering despite every attempt to censor it, then where the fuck are all the horrifying gory videos from Xinjiang, a place that is not under seige or blockade? Don't you think if such videos existed, we in Amerika would never hear the end of it?"
And hey, if China is committing a genocide against Muslims, how come the US isn't arming and supporting them?
Well it's pretty simple, ask them if they trust the US after all they did to Muslims around the world. If they are "neither Washington nor Beijing" type leftists then you can have a constructive discussion and patiently explain your point of view and acknowledge theirs in good faith. If they do trust the US then they can't be salvaged and just agree to disagree on believing anything coming from the western block
Hmm yeah that's one strategy
If they do trust the US
not a good look if that person claims to be a leftist
Gonna take this opportunity to bounce an argument off of you folks.
This supposed Uyghur genocide seems to have zero confirmed martyrs. No one is confirmed to have died in this genocide. So I like to ask people to name one person who has died in this genocide and folks never have any answers.
Some people like to say that it is a cultural genocide. Even madempanada said this. One could argue that hypothetically you could culturally genocide a people without killing one of them. But reality does not turn out this way because it turns out that peoples are intimately linked with their cultures and they don't usually just accept their culture's erasure without fighting back. This often leads to violent encounters which leads to people dying. But the supposed Uyghur genocide does not have any incident like this.
Meanwhile actual cases of genocide always have confirmed reports of people dying during the struggle. Rohingyas in Myanmar, the Muslims in Kashmir and so on. Seems like the Uyghur are unique in the fact that they don't fight back and instead delegate their struggle to NGOs based in Washington lead by Guantanamo translators.
One thing that I find to be very odd about the Uyghur genocide accusations is that we are currently witnessing a genocide in Palestine and it is being extremely well documented through social media posts, news coverage, etc. We can hear directly from the victims of the genocide and their families in near real-time and see direct evidence of what is happening because everyone there can document it using a phone that has a camera and a microphone.
It has to be said that we live in the age of social media where information always leaks out in some form or another no matter how much anyone in power within any system tries to stop it from doing so. If there were such a genocide occurring the victims would be documented, we would know their names, and we would see posts about it which show very clear evidence of this crime.
This is especially glaring as the USA attempts to ramp up to a new cold war with China (The US military has even released statements saying they consider themselves in a war footing with China, and nearly every new military RnD project is designed to counter Russia and China). If this genocide were happening, the documentation of it being done by the United States Government's most significant enemy would be everywhere on the news, you would be hearing constantly about the victims of such an act. It would be used to make the public favor economic warfare against China.
But we have seen almost no documentation or evidence of such a crime in the news, on social media, or anywhere else despite the fact that so many people have the tools to document it with ease.
It's a confluence of several forms of racism to put it naively. They see "the Chinese" as devious, where they could covertly culturally genocide you without you knowing anything about it, and other groups as too backwards to speak for themselves.
The genocide of Palestinians has thrown a spanner in the works of their racism factory because now they cannot accuse others of genocide as casually as they did before.
That is a very good analysis, IMO. The only way one could say they are doing it with such effective suppression of information is if they believed that:
A. The victims of this genocide are totally passive and not speaking out in an to attempt to stop it and have not done so for years.
B. The general public of China is marching in total 100% lock-step and nobody is brave enough or has any desire to sound an alarm about a genocide and again, have not done so for years.
It requires you to view the Chinese people as a totally monolithic entity that always does what the government wants them to do without any resistance or friction. As if, out of such a large group of people, not a single one would have desired to or found a way to leak definitive information about an ongoing genocide to the wider world.
This is also, once again, extremely strange that we aren't seeing more evidence about this in the west when, if it were happening, it would be used as a means to make the public hate the Chinese government and increase support for actions against them. We would see the evidence on the news constantly, the coverage would almost be inescapable.
It also can't be a cultural genocide (whatever vibes based analysis that would entail) because they are still considered an ethnic group part of China and not part of another ethnic group. Uyghurs have political representation in the CPPCC and people in China know they exist. It is literally called the Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region.
Meanwhile, the US has beyond a reasonable doubt committed a cultural and physical genocide on the various indigenous tribes in North America. From boarding schools where children were forced to give up all links to their culture to what the US literally calls "reservation camps" which native peoples are forced to live in total systemic poverty. The children who grow up in the US are not taught anything about indigenous cultures beyond the fact that the US displaced and exterminated them. Indigenous peoples couldn't even vote until the 1900s.
Xinjiang poses a threat to the settler class because it is an instance of a nation state actually resolving ethnic conflict not by state-backed terrorism and displacement. If people were to learn the truth about Xinjiang it would only endanger the grip that settler-colonialism has on the West.
It also can't be a cultural genocide (whatever vibes based analysis that would entail) because they are still considered an ethnic group part of China and not part of another ethnic group. Uyghurs have political representation in the CPPCC and people in China know they exist. It is literally called the Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region
these cannot be applied as principle, the existence of administrative units and official recognition are components of a dignified reality but not necessarily indicative of one. Israel has an 'autonomous' administration for the palestinians in the west bank 'Palestinian Authority'. it does not protect the palestinians. the native reservations in the US are recognized and autonomous but cultural genocide is ongoing against indigenous populations because of the marginal economic position these autonomies are in relative to the white supremacist state, to say nothing of the land & resources. by all accounts China's autonomous regions & minority programs bring disproportionate funding and support in favor of its minorities, but it is not the simple existence of autonomous administration that makes it so.
believing propaganda
propaganda doesn't have to be false (even though it is in this case). the word has been loaded like this to imply that anything with a viewpoint to promote is false while pretending that mass media is objective when it promotes bourgeois viewpoints
The really impressive thing is seeing gamers whip out the Uyghur genocide line to complain about not being allowed to make political discussion in their games.
Yes china is so powerful that suddenly gamers will abandon their no politics talk when a Chinese developer asks to not discuss politics in their sponsorship deal. Something I'd imagine most developers/publishers put in and nobody cares. But suddenly china does it (not really because this is one developer from China) and well now we have to bring up the bad evil china genocide and Hong Kong and Taiwan and just reveal we have the intellectual depth of napkin soaked in our own piss.
And the developer should be dragged for trying to hide their politics and their abuses to women in the studio, but of course gamers and libs cannot actually complain effectively because they only have blinders for china itself is bad.
Is it safe to assume that this person also believes that Zion-occupied-Palestine is not suffering a NAT-involved genocide and that every toe stub in Ukraine since 1917 is genocide?
Just say their own government supports israel so they're not allowed to have an opinion on china
I'd just usually say somewhere in the line of "for a genocide, Urumqi or Kashgar sure has a lot of Uyghur language on their street signs/shops and just all around the city and its inhabitants are practicing their faith, culture and customs from all the vlogs I've seen on youtube." I just think that if there was a "genocide", it sure as hell is a terrible attempt if the goal was to eliminate a certain ethnic group so therefore, no genocide.
Explicitly exempting ethnic minorities from the 1 child policy is something id totally have done if i were trying to do a genocide. That just makes sense
Watch libs say all the vlogs are potemkin village style tricks to fool the more guillable westerners.
Notify them that their own empire's intelligence organisations don't believe that, and ask them what evidence they have that the combined efforts of the CIA, NSA, FBI, MI5, and the other such organisations couldn't uncover.
At this point, it's a distraction from the very real genocide that's going on in Gaza. Ask them:
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Where are the fucking bodies? It takes like 2 minutes to find photos of piles of dead Palestinians exterminated by the IOF. You can easily find NSFL photos of Palestinian babies with their heads missing or Palestinian bodies with their viscera bursting out of their bodies because they were run over by an IOF tank. So where are the goddamn bodies?
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Why has every single Uyghur separatist group support the Zionist entity that is currently committing genocide in Gaza? Why do you see every dipshit separatist with a stupid smile shaking hands with a Zionist freak? Every Muslim majority country supports China's claims while every Uyghur separatist groups suck up to the Zionists. When even comprador regimes like Egypt and Jordan keep up the flimsiest of appearances by rhetorically opposing the Zionist entity, these Uyghur separatist groups can't even offer the most token of opposition.
You don't. There nobody reachable right now. Every ideology in the west has consolidated their base, everyone is going to the grave as whatever they currently are.
I tried telling them that the UN report, if you read it, just says that there’s concerns about abuse by internment offcials, and there’s no evidence of genocide. But when I say this they just dismiss it as if the UN is controlled by the PRC.
Schrodinger's rules based international order. When the UN announced the investigation and in the immediate aftermath of it, liberals praised it and held it up as evidence of how obvious China's crimes are. When you dig deeper than article headlines and read what they actually said, however, everybody knows they're in China's pocket and you can't trust a thing they say - just look at how often they condemn Israel!
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