this post was submitted on 16 Jul 2024
149 points (98.7% liked)

the_dunk_tank

15910 readers
17 users here now

It's the dunk tank.

This is where you come to post big-brained hot takes by chuds, libs, or even fellow leftists, and tear them to itty-bitty pieces with precision dunkstrikes.

Rule 1: All posts must include links to the subject matter, and no identifying information should be redacted.

Rule 2: If your source is a reactionary website, please use archive.is instead of linking directly.

Rule 3: No sectarianism.

Rule 4: TERF/SWERFs Not Welcome

Rule 5: No ableism of any kind (that includes stuff like libt*rd)

Rule 6: Do not post fellow hexbears.

Rule 7: Do not individually target other instances' admins or moderators.

Rule 8: The subject of a post cannot be low hanging fruit, that is comments/posts made by a private person that have low amount of upvotes/likes/views. Comments/Posts made on other instances that are accessible from hexbear are an exception to this. Posts that do not meet this requirement can be posted to !shitreactionariessay@lemmygrad.ml

Rule 9: if you post ironic rage bait im going to make a personal visit to your house to make sure you never make this mistake again

founded 4 years ago
MODERATORS
 

https://xcancel.com/TeamsterSOB/status/1813233768137662564

https://archive.is/Zzvlv

The C-suite long ago sold out the United States, shuttering factories in the homeland and gutting American jobs, while using the profits to push diversity, equity, and inclusion and the religion of the trans flag.

They have forged trade deals that led directly to the hemorrhaging of 4 million good jobs to China.

But as O’Brien correctly observed Monday night, that isn’t the Republican Party’s true tradition. There was a time when Republicans knew that American strength depends squarely on American workers—and their way of life: family, neighborhood, church, union hall. Ronald Reagan knew it.

China is ripping us off, and strong tariffs must be maintained and expanded.

Teamsters blaming transgender people, "DEI", and China for the suppression of the labor unions in America. Gives support to family, church, and Ronald Reagan.

you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] Alaskaball@hexbear.net 12 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (2 children)

Further. In countries more advanced than Russia, a certain reactionism in the trade unions has been and was bound to be manifested in a far greater measure than in our country. Our Mensheviks found support in the trade unions (and to some extent still do so in a small number of unions), as a result of the latter’s craft narrow-mindedness, craft selfishness and opportunism. The Mensheviks of the West have acquired a much firmer footing in the trade unions; there the craft-union, narrow-minded, selfish, case-hardened, covetous, and petty-bourgeois “labour aristocracy”, imperialist-minded, and imperialist-corrupted, has developed into a much stronger section than in our country.

That is incontestable.

The struggle against the Gomperses, and against the Jouhaux, Hendersons, Merrheims, Legiens and Co. in Western Europe is much more difficult than the struggle against our Mensheviks, who are an absolutely homogeneous social and political type. This struggle must be waged ruthlessly, and it must unfailingly be brought—as we brought it—to a point when all the incorrigible leaders of opportunism and social-chauvinism are completely discredited and driven out of the trade unions. Political power cannot be captured (and the attempt to capture it should not be made) until the struggle has reached a certain stage. This “certain stage” will be different in different countries and in different circumstances; it can be correctly gauged only by thoughtful, experienced and knowledgeable political leaders of the proletariat in each particular country. (In Russia the elections to the Constituent Assembly in November 1917, a few days after the proletarian revolution of October 25, 1917, were one of the criteria of the success of this struggle. In these elections the Mensheviks were utterly defeated; they received 700,000 votes—1,400,000 if the vote in Transcaucasia is added—as against 9,000,000 votes polled by the Bolsheviks. See my article, “The Constituent Assembly Elections and the Dictatorship of the Proletariat”,[24] in the Communist International[25] No. 7–8.)

We are waging a struggle against the “labour aristocracy” in the name of the masses of the workers and in order to win them over to our side; we are waging the struggle against the opportunist and social-chauvinist leaders in order to win the working class over to our side. It would be absurd to forget this most elementary and most self-evident truth. Yet it is this very absurdity that the German “Left” Communists perpetrate when, because of the reactionary and counter-revolutionary character of the trade union top leadership, they jump to the conclusion that . . . we must withdraw from the trade unions, refuse to work in them, and create new and artificial forms of labour organisation! This is so unpardonable a blunder that it is tantamount to the greatest service Communists could render the bourgeoisie. Like all the opportunist, social-chauvinist, and Kautskyite trade union leaders, our Mensheviks are nothing but “agents of the bourgeoisie in the working-class movement” (as we have always said the Mensheviks are), or “labour lieutenants of the capitalist class”, to use the splendid and profoundly true expression of the followers of Daniel De Leon in America. To refuse to work in the reactionary trade unions means leaving the insufficiently developed or backward masses of workers under the influence of the reactionary leaders, the agents of the bourgeoisie, the labour aristocrats, or “workers who have become completely bourgeois” (cf. Engels’s letter to Marx in 1858 about the British workers[26]).

This ridiculous “theory” that Communists should not work in reactionary trade unions reveals with the utmost clarity the frivolous attitude of the “Left” Communists towards the question of influencing the “masses”, and their misuse of clamour about the “masses”. If you want to help the “masses” and win the sympathy and support of the “masses”, you should not fear difficulties, or pinpricks, chicanery, insults and persecution from the “leaders” (who, being opportunists and social-chauvinists, are in most cases directly or indirectly connected with the bourgeoisie and the police), but must absolutely work wherever the masses are to be found. You must be capable of any sacrifice, of overcoming the greatest obstacles, in order to carry on agitation and propaganda systematically, perseveringly, persistently and patiently in those institutions, societies and associations—even the most reactionary—in which proletarian or semi-proletarian masses are to be found. The trade unions and the workers’ co-operatives (the latter sometimes, at least) are the very organisations in which the masses are to be found. According to figures quoted in the Swedish paper Folkets Dagblad Politiken of March 10, 1920, the trade union membership in Great Britain increased from 5,500,000 at the end of 1917 to 6,600,000 at the end of 1918, an increase of 19 per cent. Towards the close of 1919, the membership was estimated at 7,500,000. I have not got the corresponding figures for France and Germany to hand, but absolutely incontestable and generally known facts testify to a rapid rise in the trade union membership in these countries too.

These facts make crystal clear something that is confirmed by thousands of other symptoms, namely, that class-consciousness and the desire for organisation are growing among the proletarian masses, among the rank and file, among the backward elements. Millions of workers in Great Britain, France and Germany are for the first time passing from a complete lack of organisation to the elementary, lowest, simplest, and (to those still thoroughly imbued with bourgeois-democratic prejudices) most easily comprehensible form of organisation, namely, the trade unions; yet the revolutionary but imprudent Left Communists stand by, crying out “the masses”, “the masses!” but refusing to work within the trade unions, on the pretext that they are “reactionary”, and invent a brand-new, immaculate little “Workers’ Union”, which is guiltless of bourgeois-democratic prejudices and innocent of craft or narrow-minded craft-union sins, a union which, they claim, will be (!) a broad organisation. “Recognition of the Soviet system and the dictatorship” will be the only (!) condition of membership. (See the passage quoted above.)

It would be hard to imagine any greater ineptitude or greater harm to the revolution than that caused by the “Left” revolutionaries! Why, if we in Russia today, after two and a half years of unprecedented victories over the bourgeoisie of Russia and the Entente, were to make “recognition of the dictatorship” a condition of trade union membership, we would be doing a very foolish thing, damaging our influence among the masses, and helping the Mensheviks. The task devolving on Communists is to convince the backward elements, to work among them, and not to fence themselves off from them with artificial and childishly “Left” slogans.

There can be no doubt that the Gomperses, the Hendersons, the Jonhaux and the Legiens are very grateful to those “Left” revolutionaries who, like the German opposition “on principle” (heaven preserve us from such “principles”!), or like some of the revolutionaries in the American Industrial Workers of the World[27] advocate quitting the reactionary trade unions and refusing to work in them. These men, the “leaders” of opportunism, will no doubt resort to every device of bourgeois diplomacy and to the aid of bourgeois governments, the clergy, the police and the courts, to keep Communists out of the trade unions, oust them by every means, make their work in the trade unions as unpleasant as possible, and insult, bait and persecute them.

We must be able to stand up to all this, agree to make any sacrifice, and even—if need be—to resort to various stratagems, artifices and illegal methods, to evasions and subterfuges, as long as we get into the trade unions, remain in them, and carry on communist work within them at all costs. Under tsarism we had no “legal opportunities” whatsoever until 1905. However, when Zubatov, agent of the secret police, organised Black-Hundred workers’ assemblies and workingmen’s societies for the purpose of trapping revolutionaries and combating them, we sent members of our Party to these assemblies and into these societies (I personally remember one of them, Comrade Babushkin, a leading St. Petersburg factory worker, shot by order of the tsar’s generals in 1906). They established contacts with the masses, were able to carry on their agitation, and succeeded in wresting workers from the influence of Zubatov’s agents. [*4] Of course, in Western Europe, which is imbued with most deep-rooted legalistic, constitutionalist and bourgeois-democratic prejudices, this is more difficult of achievement. However, it can and must be carried out, and systematically at that.

The Executive Committee of the Third International must, in my opinion, positively condemn, and call upon the next congress of the Communist International to condemn both the policy of refusing to work in reactionary trade unions in general (explaining in detail why such refusal is unwise, and what extreme harm it does to the cause of the proletarian revolution) and, in particular, the line of conduct of some members of the Communist Party of Holland, who—whether directly or indirectly, overtly or covertly, wholly or partly, it does not matter—have supported this erroneous policy. The Third International must break with the tactics of the Second International, it must not evade or play down points at issue, but must pose them in a straightforward fashion. The whole truth has been put squarely to the “Independents”; the whole truth must likewise be put squarely to the “Left” Communists.

[–] BobDole@hexbear.net 10 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 children)

Hey, maybe don’t use the # so much, it makes it unreadable on mobile. Also, maybe link to the work instead and quote the most relevant bits instead of quoting such long tracts.

Also, yeah I phrased that wrong. Sorry, I’m recovering from covid right now and I’m not at 100%. I meant that we should have organizations outside of them, not that we should ignore them.

[–] Alaskaball@hexbear.net 7 points 3 months ago (1 children)

The links in the second sentence lol but you have a point

[–] BobDole@hexbear.net 7 points 3 months ago (1 children)

I always respect your posting rat-salute

[–] Alaskaball@hexbear.net 5 points 3 months ago

As I respect yours comrade Bob Dole rat-salute-2

[–] combat_brandonism@hexbear.net 6 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 children)

or like some of the revolutionaries in the American Industrial Workers of the World[27] advocate quitting the reactionary trade unions and refusing to work in them

At least that's changed in the last century. I believe dual carding is encouraged, secretly if the business union forbids it. Mostly though the wobblies today focus on shops that don't receive any organizing support from business unions.

Sort of the same way Lenin calls for dual power, workers looking to take control of their business union need a way to organize within it independently of its power structures if the union is wholly coopted by class traitors. Every high profile case where rank-and-file have gained power in american unions in the last ~decade (RWU, UAW, etc.) has featured some dual organizing like that.

[–] Alaskaball@hexbear.net 6 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (2 children)

IWW has an internal discipline management problem that devolves the entire organization into factionalist infighting due to the fact that the only measure of membership discipline they have is through expulsion from the IWW.

This also doesn't mention the fact that the IWW is a hollowed out shell of its former glory and has only recently begun clawing itself back from irrelevance in the labor organizing field meaning that the IWW is fundamentally not where the working class is located. Dual unionism is an alright thing if you think you can learn something from them, but I'd say you'll have better luck studying Foster.

[–] combat_brandonism@hexbear.net 5 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 children)

Yeah I mean the ideology at its root is fundamentally anarchist so if you're looking for demcent you're barking up the wrong tree. But if you work in an industry that's not already well organized, they're probably your best choice for learning how to organize your workplace. The DSA's been doing a lot of work there recently too and deserve a shoutout. The only other alternative is to reach out to a business union, which is how you get the Teamsters representing prison guards, the AFT organizing a hospital, etc. And those business unions are better than nothing but you'll still need to do your own organizing to counteract the likely comprador leadership of the union (the whole impetus for this thread lol).

Wobblies are big tent tho, there's plenty of anarchobidenists and a few MLs too. But like the labor leaders Lenin mentioned at the top of your cited section of "Left-Wing" Communism, the MLs who are members are there for workplace organizing and not trying to make the org itself demcent:

Thus, on the whole, we have a formally non-communist, flexible and relatively wide and very powerful proletarian apparatus, by means of which the Party is closely linked up with the class and the masses, and by means of which, under the leadership of the Party, the class dictatorship is exercised.

Worth noting that the union leadership Lenin talks about didn't just turn Party member overnight. It's one of the outcomes of pursuing a dual power strategy for a long period of time.

due to the factionalism being so bad in the IWW that it resulted in their internal elections being mandated by law to have federal oversight over allegations of fraud due to them joining the NLRB

I'd appreciate you removing this FUD comrade. It's both not how the NLRB works nor how internal wobbly elections work (as much as they do), and it's borderline fedjacketing from a place of admitted ignorance.

Internal wobbly politics are shit, not defending that. I ignore it as much as possible. But the most active membership is focused on shop floor organizing, and on the whole it's a good org for that purpose. Which is why I mentioned them. They're not a replacement for party organizing, nor do they claim to be, and that wasn't the purpose of my comment. Just noting that it's a marked difference from the IWW at the height (or just after) of its power that Lenin was critiquing.

[–] Alaskaball@hexbear.net 3 points 3 months ago (1 children)

I'd appreciate you removing this FUD comrade. It's both not how the NLRB works nor how internal wobbly elections work (as much as they do), and it's borderline fedjacketing from a place of admitted ignorance.

I'll grant that, as it's second-hand information drawn purely from my swiss cheese memorybanks.

Thus, on the whole, we have a formally non-communist, flexible and relatively wide and very powerful proletarian apparatus, by means of which the Party is closely linked up with the class and the masses, and by means of which, under the leadership of the Party, the class dictatorship is exercised.

Worth noting that the union leadership Lenin talks about didn't just turn Party member overnight. It's one of the outcomes of pursuing a dual power strategy for a long period of time.

I'd point out that such a dual power strategy is the result of a communist party pursuing it for a long period of time and not

The DSA's been doing a lot of work there recently too and deserve a shoutout. The only other alternative is to reach out to a business union, which is how you get the Teamsters representing prison guards, the AFT organizing a hospital, etc. And those business unions are better than nothing but you'll still need to do your own organizing to counteract the likely comprador leadership of the union (the whole impetus for this thread lol).

relying on social democrats or unions that've had their ranks drained and stripped of their Reds for decades - which while DSA should get a pat on the head for their accomplishments in the field, they also deserve to get their nose rubbed in their own turds with regards to their ties to the TDU.

Ultimately this discussion boils down to Communists need to be joining or building or expanding unions and working their way up their power structures to the best of their ability in order to reorientate them as proletarian structures. Something that's not accomplished by going ick at the currently existing structures and running off to build your own unions and believe your left-sounding phrasemongering will suddenly inspire union workers to flood over to you. You get in there and kick the foxes out of the henhouse and slam the door on their asses

[–] combat_brandonism@hexbear.net 3 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

100-com to all of that. The DSA shoutout was just for helping workers ignored by shit business unions organize, they get no credit for

Communists need to be joining or building or expanding unions and working their way up their power structures to the best of their ability in order to reorientate them as proletarian structures.

The discussion of the current state of the IWW just goes to me pointing out that a notable difference from a century ago is that they're a small part of the movement to, "get in there and kick the foxes out of the henhouse and slam the door on their asses," and have largely abandoned 'left-sounding phrasemongering to suddenly inspire union workers to flood over to them'.

Ty for removing the FUD. The IWW is far from perfect but they are largely a good org when it comes to organizing for shop floor power.

[–] BobDole@hexbear.net 5 points 3 months ago (1 children)

I would agree about the internal discipline problem. It’s like the farthest thing from a democratic centralist org as can be, and my local branch is infested with real life anarchobidenists, but it’s the only active local org that isn’t trots or CPUSA.

I hate where I live lmao

[–] Alaskaball@hexbear.net 4 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

You have my sympathy, I may be surrounded by jack diddly shit up here which has its own problems but I can't imagine being surrounded by some of the most annoying libs in America and having to try and materially create some good wherever you're at.