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Biden is dramatically out of touch with voters on Gaza. He may lose because of it | Moira Donegan
(www.theguardian.com)
this post was submitted on 22 May 2024
85 points (69.1% liked)
politics
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He's out of touch with young/idealistic voters who don't understand that voting for the lesser of two evils is still voting your conscience.
The choice is fascism or neo liberalism. Hopefully someday we'll have a better choice. Not voting now makes that less likely. As does Biden doubling down on zionism.
I wonder if this isn't overblown propaganda. Personally, and I know this is just my experience, but I've never met a person who isn't a Trump supporter who isn't voting for Biden. I'm sure they exist, and I want to keep seeing stories like this to encourage Biden to do better, and scare moderates to make sure they show up in November.
Republicans vote for their candidate and against their opponents. Democrats historically only show up in support. Just look at the 2016 election.
And yet Biden keeps making it harder to support him. He's been in politics for half a century. He has to know that Democratic turnout is depressed when they only have someone to vote against.
My far left friend wrote in Bernies name in 2016.
He did not play stupid games in 2020, and I suspect in 2024, though I haven't talked to him about it.
As left as he is, he has known what another Trump presidency means since 2021 with no ambiguity. Anyone pretending otherwise at this point isn't arguing in good faith.
^ THIS. I'd so much rather be voting for a Bernie right now, but the reality is...there are two choices, and that is it. Not voting for Biden is helping Ronald McDonald.
It's not propaganda. Look through the replies to my comment already someone came out with black and white thinking concerning evil (no such thing as the lesser of two).
I remember being this idealistic when I was younger. I met a lot of young minorities during 2020 who didn't vote because they didn't feel represented by either old white guy.
Now we have young white people feeling the same because they're seeing the horrors of neo liberalism playing out and they don't understand what fascism is (it's what Israel is doing, so yeah, voting for Trump is a vote for more genocide but whatever...).
And, the DNC is going to blame voter apathy if they lose. And honestly, this could be a repeat of 2016. Democrats ignoring the will of the people and handing Trump the presidency.
That’s exactly what’s going to happen.
Why show up when all that is going to happen is us being ignored?
Why is that the choice in what is supposedly the most free country in history?
We've never been a free country. They meant free from the monarchy. Free to own their own slaves, etc.
But I hear your point. Another poster pointed out that if these are the two choices, democracy is already over, if it ever was to begin with.
I might end up voting third party. But the harm reductionist in me knows Biden is not as bad as Trump. And it's hard to vote my conscience when a vote for Biden means fewer dead bodies.
Agreed. Though there is the argument that neoliberalism leads to Trump/fascism. So a vote for Dems/Neoliberals/Biden is just prolonging the inevitable - which, even if true, is still worth prolonging
Unless you live in a swing state, then you might as well - there's really no reason for voters in California or Oklahoma, for instance, to vote blue/red. And 2000 and 2016 demonstrate that popular vote victories have extremely limited moral/political significance.
I do live in a swing state. So yea, it matters here.
Obediently voting for the least worst option means you eventually run out of good options. <- we are here
The conundrum is working out how you force those options to get better without accelerationists getting to test out their theories for real (again).
I would respectifully suggest that "shut the fuck up and vote" does not cut it.
I don’t think anyone is saying that. Don’t shut up, but do vote!
Third party for the win!
Ok, but how?
Is there an option on the ballot for President that would allow me to vote without violating my conscience?
There’s not now, nor will there ever be a perfect choice. Fact is that all US presidents have, to some extent, blood on their hands. Is the choice this year bad? Yes. But all previous presidents in recent times supplied arms to regimes like Saudi Arabia, Israel etc. In the past the US itself committed its own genocide on native Americans, interned Japanese, killed hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese, invaded Iraq and Afghanistan etc etc. And with all these atrocities, voting the lesser evil helped (a bit). Perfect is not for sale this year, nor will it ever be.
I'm not even asking for "perfect".
I'd be entirely satisfied by "tolerable", and genocide is nowhere near that.
Associating Joe Biden so closely with genocide demonstrates a lack of capacity for understanding nuance. Supporting Israel doesn't automatically equate to supporting Netanyahu's genocide in Gaza, but it does indicate support for the Israeli (and by extension, Jewish) right to exist. One can simultaneously protest the genocide in Gaza and support a friendly, cooperative Israel.
By sending them weapons to continue the genocidal actions?
The United States is committing genocide against the Palestinian people in the same way that you would be committing murder if you hired a hitman to kill someone
We are knowingly providing Israel with the funds and arms to commit genocide. Therefore, we are committing genocide. Therefore, Biden is committing genocide.
Trump is worse. But Biden is the worst president since Nixon, and possibly since the Native American Genocides successfully ended.
He is a monster. No matter how much student debt he forgives or how many roads he claims to build
Spotted the Zionist.
Never again meant Never Again
Demanding that people vote for the least worst option without any content other than sneering at them for apparently not realising that one of the options is worse, is doing exactly that.
It's straw-manning the arguments of people who want (and desperately need) the Democrats to be better and are putting serious thought, time and energy into how that is possible in a world controlled by billionaires who unleash fascism the moment their power is threatened.
And they're doing it with a lazy, cynical, Bill Maher-wannabe take because apparently they think this is a good look?
They'll be the death of us all.
I'm not demanding anything. But refusing to vote against Trump is exactly the sort of acceleration you mentioned. It's cynical and nihilistic, the things you've just accused me of.
We should use every tool available, including voting for the least bad option if those are our only two choices.
The administration isn't going to hear us before November. Maybe after if we keep at them.
If Trump wins, we'll see even more jackboots on campuses. And you know this. I'm not shaming you or blaming you. But trying to convince you to vote against that even if you can't stand Biden.
Our ideals and values are important. But we have to learn to be pragmatic (like Bernie) if our values are going to survive.
Edit: if it helps you understand where I'm coming from, I was one of the upvotes on your original post. The administration should be held accountable and if a fascist dictator wins in November I'll blame Biden's administration for not listening more than I'll blame idealistic people for refusing to vote against their conscience.
Personally, I've done the math and am far more pragmatic the older I get. So I will vote against Trump in November.
If that was my position, I wouldn't have faulted Biden his Zionism.
But ultimately, like Bernie who I admire, I've learned to be a pragmatist as I've gotten older.
Don't shut up. By all means, speak your mind. Biden should do better and should be pressured to do better. People need to keep protesting and drawing attention to the injustice.
And also vote. If you can't vote for Biden, swallow your pride and vote against Trump. Because we're not going to see any progress by defecting and giving the fascists the nukes.
Because they’re going to change if you keep voting for them?
Einstein had something to say about that
I'm voting against trump by voting 3rd party. Care to join?
If you know a third party candidate that has a chance of winning and aligns better with my valies, than sure.
Otherwise I feel like you're just trolling.
But if you have some underground third party movement going that's going to upset this election definitely let me know!
If you want a third party candidate to have a chance of winning or even influencing politics then you have to actually vote third party. My comment was no more in bad faith than the people who dogmatically shout "vote blue no matter who." or "A vote for third party is a vote for trump." or some other condescending remark. The point is that people like to try to brow-beat others into voting for candidates that they also claim don't represent them. I've long been tired of making fear-based political decisions just so I can elect someone who doesn't represent me. If it's truly only a choice between some guy I don't like and some guy who will end democracy, then you have no real choice and Democracy has already ended -if it ever began. I will likely be voting for Cornel West or Green Party (as I did during the last General Election) because I actually like and agree with their proposed policy, not because I'm scared of someone else winning. So yes we could really use your vote even if it's just to get us to 5%. If you choose not to then that is your choice, and at least we are offering you that.
Your point about democracy already ending, if it ever began, hit the mark for me.
I'll check out the green party candidate. Cornell is someone I used to follow a bit too and I'll take a look at where he's at.
What are your feelings on voting in the primaries?
I thought Uncommitted was a smart use of the primaries.
More generally, obviously much more critical than in the election itself. But getting the right candidates in the primary, and pushing all candidates to be better in all the usual ways. They're never going to chase us to the left like they chase to the right, so we have to do the work and set the boundaries.
Can you please suggest one candidate other than Biden who has a realistic chance of winning against Trump?
Name one single candidate running right now
The Democrats do not have a realistic chance of winning against Trump because the Democrats are entirely incapable of challenging power. It's the fundamental contradiction of liberalism. They won't do anything for the people they need to vote for them because if they do the people who fund them will stop funding them.
Obama and Sanders both excelled at small-dollar donations, of course. Sadly, Obama was a silver-tongued coward and the Clinton Democrats made sure she didn't repeat the mistakes of 2008 in 2016 by not bothering to sign up voters in case they killed her in the primaries again.
They dig their own grave and they do so willingly because it makes them exceedingly rich.
Neoliberalism is fascism and there is no lesser evil, only evil. He should not be rewarded with reelection if he won't listen to the demands of the public. That's how we got to the point where the only option is which senile pedo rapist to choose from.
The pedo rapist in the end already shows the difference between the candidates. Vote for the guy that has not been accused of rape.
I hereby accuse Biden of rape
Both neo liberalism and fascism are totalitarian. Neo liberalism fulfills it's totalitarian function by appropraition. Fascism by annihilation.
Both are absolutely evil. But the later will be grossly accelerated under Trump, both domestically, in Israel, and in Ukraine.
So, not voting means more dead bodies. Essentially. More dead children. In more places like Gaza.
Is your black and white commitment to evil is evil worth more dead kids?
And if the cons (and apparently some tankies) get their way, it will mean many more here in the U.S.
Y’all keep acting like we don’t end up with plenty of dead kids anyway.
Fuck this country, I’m done.
You guys have fun playing like your decision matters.
Hey, I absolutely believe Biden is in the wrong here and that if Trump wins, it will be the fault of the Democrats for doubling down on zionism.
I'm still voting for him because I'm also voting against Trump who will absolutely be worse. Domestically Biden has been excellent. The shit with Israel I don't support and I wouldn't blame anyone for not voting for him.
For me it's more of a math problem. Trump is more of what I don't want happening. Biden is status quo which I don't like. But those are the two choices and voting does make a difference here on if things stay this bad, or get much worse.
How is electing Biden going to mean less dead kids in Gaza? He’s still supporting Israel, and he literally just said that US support was ironclad and that no genocide is happening. It doesn’t matter who wins in November, those kids are still going to die, and ultimately that’s on Americans because we supply the weapons and protect Israel from consequences, with force if necessary.
Gaza is done for, everyone there will be killed by the direct actions of the United States and Israel, and voting for Biden isn’t going to absolve anyone for the guilt we all share for that. That’s on you, that’s on me, and that’s on every other American, both Democrat or Republican. No amount of moralizing or “lesser of two evils” bullshit on your part is going to change that. You need to come to terms with the fact that you have a hand in that genocide, and you’re just as guilty as Biden is.
I didn't say more dead kids in Gaza. I said more dead kids in places like Gaza.
I even mentioned Ukraine specifically.
And I'm not taking on that guilt. You do you. I've been telling zionists this was genocide since October and doing my small part as a very small gear in a very big machine.
I'll also do my part to steer the ship away from Trump. Even if that means I vote by the numbers rather than by my heart.
It's a trolley problem. Defecting doesn't stop the trolley. But does make it more likely to end in disaster.