85
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 22 May 2024
85 points (69.1% liked)
politics
19104 readers
2825 users here now
Welcome to the discussion of US Politics!
Rules:
- Post only links to articles, Title must fairly describe link contents. If your title differs from the site’s, it should only be to add context or be more descriptive. Do not post entire articles in the body or in the comments.
Links must be to the original source, not an aggregator like Google Amp, MSN, or Yahoo.
Example:
- Articles must be relevant to politics. Links must be to quality and original content. Articles should be worth reading. Clickbait, stub articles, and rehosted or stolen content are not allowed. Check your source for Reliability and Bias here.
- Be civil, No violations of TOS. It’s OK to say the subject of an article is behaving like a (pejorative, pejorative). It’s NOT OK to say another USER is (pejorative). Strong language is fine, just not directed at other members. Engage in good-faith and with respect! This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban.
- No memes, trolling, or low-effort comments. Reposts, misinformation, off-topic, trolling, or offensive. Similarly, if you see posts along these lines, do not engage. Report them, block them, and live a happier life than they do. We see too many slapfights that boil down to "Mom! He's bugging me!" and "I'm not touching you!" Going forward, slapfights will result in removed comments and temp bans to cool off.
- Vote based on comment quality, not agreement. This community aims to foster discussion; please reward people for putting effort into articulating their viewpoint, even if you disagree with it.
- No hate speech, slurs, celebrating death, advocating violence, or abusive language. This will result in a ban. Usernames containing racist, or inappropriate slurs will be banned without warning
We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.
All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.
That's all the rules!
Civic Links
• Congressional Awards Program
• Library of Congress Legislative Resources
• U.S. House of Representatives
Partnered Communities:
• News
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
Obediently voting for the least worst option means you eventually run out of good options. <- we are here
The conundrum is working out how you force those options to get better without accelerationists getting to test out their theories for real (again).
I would respectifully suggest that "shut the fuck up and vote" does not cut it.
I don’t think anyone is saying that. Don’t shut up, but do vote!
Third party for the win!
Ok, but how?
Is there an option on the ballot for President that would allow me to vote without violating my conscience?
There’s not now, nor will there ever be a perfect choice. Fact is that all US presidents have, to some extent, blood on their hands. Is the choice this year bad? Yes. But all previous presidents in recent times supplied arms to regimes like Saudi Arabia, Israel etc. In the past the US itself committed its own genocide on native Americans, interned Japanese, killed hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese, invaded Iraq and Afghanistan etc etc. And with all these atrocities, voting the lesser evil helped (a bit). Perfect is not for sale this year, nor will it ever be.
I'm not even asking for "perfect".
I'd be entirely satisfied by "tolerable", and genocide is nowhere near that.
Never again meant Never Again
Associating Joe Biden so closely with genocide demonstrates a lack of capacity for understanding nuance. Supporting Israel doesn't automatically equate to supporting Netanyahu's genocide in Gaza, but it does indicate support for the Israeli (and by extension, Jewish) right to exist. One can simultaneously protest the genocide in Gaza and support a friendly, cooperative Israel.
The United States is committing genocide against the Palestinian people in the same way that you would be committing murder if you hired a hitman to kill someone
We are knowingly providing Israel with the funds and arms to commit genocide. Therefore, we are committing genocide. Therefore, Biden is committing genocide.
Trump is worse. But Biden is the worst president since Nixon, and possibly since the Native American Genocides successfully ended.
He is a monster. No matter how much student debt he forgives or how many roads he claims to build
By sending them weapons to continue the genocidal actions?
Spotted the Zionist.
Demanding that people vote for the least worst option without any content other than sneering at them for apparently not realising that one of the options is worse, is doing exactly that.
It's straw-manning the arguments of people who want (and desperately need) the Democrats to be better and are putting serious thought, time and energy into how that is possible in a world controlled by billionaires who unleash fascism the moment their power is threatened.
And they're doing it with a lazy, cynical, Bill Maher-wannabe take because apparently they think this is a good look?
They'll be the death of us all.
I'm not demanding anything. But refusing to vote against Trump is exactly the sort of acceleration you mentioned. It's cynical and nihilistic, the things you've just accused me of.
We should use every tool available, including voting for the least bad option if those are our only two choices.
The administration isn't going to hear us before November. Maybe after if we keep at them.
If Trump wins, we'll see even more jackboots on campuses. And you know this. I'm not shaming you or blaming you. But trying to convince you to vote against that even if you can't stand Biden.
Our ideals and values are important. But we have to learn to be pragmatic (like Bernie) if our values are going to survive.
Edit: if it helps you understand where I'm coming from, I was one of the upvotes on your original post. The administration should be held accountable and if a fascist dictator wins in November I'll blame Biden's administration for not listening more than I'll blame idealistic people for refusing to vote against their conscience.
Personally, I've done the math and am far more pragmatic the older I get. So I will vote against Trump in November.
If that was my position, I wouldn't have faulted Biden his Zionism.
But ultimately, like Bernie who I admire, I've learned to be a pragmatist as I've gotten older.
Don't shut up. By all means, speak your mind. Biden should do better and should be pressured to do better. People need to keep protesting and drawing attention to the injustice.
And also vote. If you can't vote for Biden, swallow your pride and vote against Trump. Because we're not going to see any progress by defecting and giving the fascists the nukes.
Because they’re going to change if you keep voting for them?
Einstein had something to say about that
I'm voting against trump by voting 3rd party. Care to join?
If you know a third party candidate that has a chance of winning and aligns better with my valies, than sure.
Otherwise I feel like you're just trolling.
But if you have some underground third party movement going that's going to upset this election definitely let me know!
If you want a third party candidate to have a chance of winning or even influencing politics then you have to actually vote third party. My comment was no more in bad faith than the people who dogmatically shout "vote blue no matter who." or "A vote for third party is a vote for trump." or some other condescending remark. The point is that people like to try to brow-beat others into voting for candidates that they also claim don't represent them. I've long been tired of making fear-based political decisions just so I can elect someone who doesn't represent me. If it's truly only a choice between some guy I don't like and some guy who will end democracy, then you have no real choice and Democracy has already ended -if it ever began. I will likely be voting for Cornel West or Green Party (as I did during the last General Election) because I actually like and agree with their proposed policy, not because I'm scared of someone else winning. So yes we could really use your vote even if it's just to get us to 5%. If you choose not to then that is your choice, and at least we are offering you that.
Your point about democracy already ending, if it ever began, hit the mark for me.
I'll check out the green party candidate. Cornell is someone I used to follow a bit too and I'll take a look at where he's at.
What are your feelings on voting in the primaries?
I thought Uncommitted was a smart use of the primaries.
More generally, obviously much more critical than in the election itself. But getting the right candidates in the primary, and pushing all candidates to be better in all the usual ways. They're never going to chase us to the left like they chase to the right, so we have to do the work and set the boundaries.
Can you please suggest one candidate other than Biden who has a realistic chance of winning against Trump?
Name one single candidate running right now
The Democrats do not have a realistic chance of winning against Trump because the Democrats are entirely incapable of challenging power. It's the fundamental contradiction of liberalism. They won't do anything for the people they need to vote for them because if they do the people who fund them will stop funding them.
Obama and Sanders both excelled at small-dollar donations, of course. Sadly, Obama was a silver-tongued coward and the Clinton Democrats made sure she didn't repeat the mistakes of 2008 in 2016 by not bothering to sign up voters in case they killed her in the primaries again.
They dig their own grave and they do so willingly because it makes them exceedingly rich.