808
Growth as an end
(lemmy.dbzer0.com)
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 15 May 2024
808 points (95.2% liked)
Lefty Memes
4298 readers
616 users here now
An international (English speaking) socialist Lemmy community free of the "ML" influence of instances like lemmy.ml and lemmygrad. This is a place for undogmatic shitposting and memes from a progressive, anti-capitalist and truly anti-imperialist perspective, regardless of specific ideology.
Serious posts, news, and discussion go in c/Socialism.
If you are new to socialism, you can ask questions and find resources over on c/Socialism101.
Please don't forget to help keep this community clean by reporting rule violations, updooting good contributions and downdooting those of low-quality!
Rules
0. Only post socialist memes
That refers to funny image macros and means that generally videos and screenshots are not allowed. Exceptions include explicitly humorous and short videos, as well as (social media) screenshots depicting a funny situation, joke, or joke picture relating to socialist movements, theory, societal issues, or political opponents. Examples would be the classic case of humorous Tumblr or Twitter posts/threads. (and no, agitprop text does not count as a meme)
1. Socialist Unity in the form of mutual respect and good faith interactions is enforced here
Try to keep an open mind, other schools of thought may offer points of view and analyses you haven't considered yet. Also: This is not a place for the Idealism vs. Materialism or rather Anarchism vs. Marxism debate(s), for that please visit c/AnarchismVsMarxism.
2. Anti-Imperialism means recognizing capitalist states like Russia and China as such,
as well as condemning (their) imperialism, even if it is of the "anti-USA" flavor.
3. No liberalism, (right-wing) revisionism or reactionaries.
That includes so called: Social Democracy, Democratic Socialism, Dengism, Market Socialism, Patriotic Socialism, National Bolshevism, Anarcho-Capitalism etc. . Anti-Socialist people and content have no place here, as well as the variety of "Marxist"-"Leninists" seen on lemmygrad and more specifically GenZedong (actual ML's are welcome as long as they agree to the rules and don't just copy paste/larp about stuff from a hundred years ago).
4. No Bigotry.
The only dangerous minority is the rich.
5. Don't demonize previous and current socialist experiments or (leading) individuals.
We must constructively learn from their mistakes, while acknowledging their achievements and recognizing when they have strayed away from socialist principles.
(if you are reading the rules to apply for modding this community, mention "Mantic Minotaur" when answering question 2)
6. Don't idolize/glorify previous and current socialist experiments or (leading) individuals.
Notable achievements in all spheres of society were made by various socialist/people's/democratic republics around the world. Mistakes, however, were made as well: bureaucratic castes of parasitic elites - as well as reactionary cults of personality - were established, many things were mismanaged and prejudice and bigotry sometimes replaced internationalism and progressiveness.
7. Absolutely no posts or comments meant to relativize(/apologize for), advocate, promote or defend:
- Racism
- Sexism
- Queerphobia
- Ableism
- Classism
- Rape or assault
- Genocide/ethnic cleansing or (mass) deportations
- Fascism
- (National) chauvinism
- Orientalism
- Colonialism or Imperialism (and their neo- counterparts)
- Zionism
- Religious fundamentalism of any kind
(This is not a definitive list, the spirit of the other rules still counts! Eventual duplicates with other rules are for emphasis.)
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
I think that definition of socialism is insufficient. It sounds like an end-goal. I thought we were all communists. We wanted the dissolution of all hierarchy, of the state and of classes, of money and work.
Socialism was then just born as a way to define what comes right after capitalism, and right before communism.
We can still all agree that those are two different socialisms in themselves. It won’t look the same right after capitalism from right before communism.
But getting back to it, how does your socialism maintain itself without markets? How does it protect itself? How does it function without regulations? You imply a state with your definition and don’t even realise it.
Jumping in to hopefully clarify something. The anarchist definition of the state is different than the Marxist definition of the state.
The anarchist definition of socialism is also different than the Marxist definition of socialism. Generally speaking, to anarchists, socialism and communism are synonyms, and there really isn't the lower/higher phase distinction.
State capitalism is a term used to describe the economic systems of places like the USSR. The state steps in and becomes the capitalist, in essence. The worker is in a similar position of not really owning the means of production, in the same way that the public doesn't really national parks in the US. In paper, in theory, and perhaps in spirit, the workers in a socialist state own the means of production, but in reality it is owned by the [the party/the state/an elite group of people]. There is still a similar incentive towards growth, there is still a group of people profiting off the backs of those who do the actual work of creating the items needed for survival, and there still a disconnected between those who do the labor of keeping all of us fed and clothed and the use of those things. Workers are not directly in control, and that's the problem, to the anarchist view.
Effectively, the anarchist is view that we can and should move directly from our current system to a stateless (by the anarchist definition of the state), classless, moneyless system, without an intermediary state in between.
I do understand all that. But explain this, how are all these commodity producing worker owned business regulated? How do they operate on a market? Who sets and controls this market? Who ensures collective property of the means of production?
Socialism as an economic model with the workers owning the means of production kinda still has commodity production, money etc. otherwise the whole concept of a collectively owned business makes no sense.
Unless you advocate for the complete atomization of groups into self-sufficient cells that have no organisation between them, to me you are still describing a state.
Also, can’t workers be in direct control of their means of production in a socialist state? What mechanically or physically impedes that? Like coops were a major part of the soviet model, right?
How long do you envision the transition from capitalism to socialism/communism to take then?
(Also also, Marx did talk a lot about “lower stage” communism or socialism later in life. Also about how a revolution could move towards a completely free worker’s state instead of going through an authoritarian phase - he had correspondence with a revolutionary peasant woman in Russia about this it’s really interesting, if I find it I’ll share).
found it
I jumped in to define some terms it looked like there might be confusion on (though it looks like I might have been wrong?), I'm not here to defend any positions. Haha. I have my views, but I find very little benefit to arguing them online, especially when my views are already niche within leftist spaces.
All that said, super psyched to read that correspondence!
Wait, what's the end-goal, then? Socialism, or the dissolution of all hierarchies?
Socialism is an economic mode, not necessarily an end-goal. Worker's ownership of the means of production is a clear, consice, and not ideologically chargeddefinition.
That's what Lenin invented, without ever really relying on a clear definition of the term. (Marx used "communism" and "socialism" interchangeably) In the end, everything the Bolsheviki did was defined as "socialism", robbing the term of any proper meaning. Hell, even China claims that it is "socialist".
I don't really agree that societal development necessarily happens in these stages, so I don't really agree with your premise of clearly defined stages between "capitalism" and "communism". It's too focused on Hegelian dialectics, while I want to focus more on systems analysis.
I'm not really in the mood to explain a complete hypothetical socialist political system, just because you don't accept the most common definition of socialism. I can insteand direct you to the anarchist FAQ. There, they broadly address economics, self-defense and other questions you might have.
Marxism rejects Hegelian dialectics, which are Idealist, in favor of Dialectical Materialism. DiaMat does not believe that societal development necessarily happens in clear cut stages, but that each stage of development contians within it both elements of the previous stage, and the next stage. The next "stage" is not necessarily the same! There are numerous paths, but the resolving of these conflicting elements, or "contradictions," is what drives change.
That's why Marxists say development isn't a straight line, but spirals.
Marx's version is still way too focused on Kegelian dialectics. You can glance that fact by noticing the "dialectical" part of dialectical materialism.
It retains the dialectical aspect and rejects the idealist. Why do you say it is "too" focused on Hegelian Dialectics? Which parts of Dialectics that Marx took from Hegel retain Hegel's idealist flaws? What ought Marx have continued to leave behind?
Marx didn't have system theory back then. We have systems theory now. Why use an outdated form of sociological analysis?
That's Dialectical Materialism in another name. Dialectical Materialism chiefly states that everything is connected and cannot be taken in a vacuum without looking at its past, trajectory, and relations.
I ask again, what specifically is wrong with Marxian Dialectical Materialism? Am I under a mistaken assumption on what you are specifically referring to by saying Systems Theory is "superior?"
Put another way, what does Systems Theory add that is incompatible with Dialectical Materialism?
One example: Marx had the notion that mankind lives in a cruel world which needs to be conquered. Dialectical materialism ignores the natural framework we live in. It doesn't take ecosystems and climate change into account. That's a reason why Bookchin expanded on it with what he called "dialectical naturalism".
But marxists rarely if ever read Bookchin, in my experience.
How exactly does Dialectical Materialism ignore the natural framework we live in, when the basis of Dialectical Materialism is that everything is connected and constantly changing? Climate Change and Ecosystems are perfect examples of Dialectical Materialism.
I fail to see your point.
You're overgeneralizing dialectical materialism.
Dialectidal implies that there are two opposing forces which contradict each other. That's a subset of system theory.
I know saying "read theory!" is a terrible way of engaging, but reading Georges Politzer's Elementary Principles of Philosophy might genuinely help your understanding of Dialectical Materialism, even if you ultimately discard it. Page 93 on is particularly handy in this case, but the whole work is great.
Essentially, you are correct that dialectics implies contradiction and opposition, but that's only a subset of the broader framework of Dialectical Materialism. Mainly, you're ignoring what happens to Materialism when combined with Dialectics. Everything must be seen as connected and transitional, nothing is the same as it was.