547
nuanceposting
(lemmy.cafe)
Important clarification/FAQ
I am not calling to coddle or excuse the behavior of bigoted men in any way!
I am calling to be kind and understanding to young men (often ages 10-20) who are very manipulable and succeptible to the massive anti feminist propaganda machine. Hope this clarifies that very important distinction. :)
Very good comments that express key points:
- Detailed summary of the situation if you're wondering what's going on
- The rhetorical value of the bear hypothetical and what this means for you
- One example of why the long-term rhetorical value of the hypothetical is poor, in the context of intersectionality
- What does disenfranchisement mean in this context?
- The importance of not asking women to tone down their expressions of fear and frustration
- "But why can't they just say it nicely?"
- The importance of participation in kindness toward young men, specifically outside the context of people speaking their experiences
Edit: This post has now been removed and restored twice. I want to encourage you all:
Be decent to one another
I think this post is a valuable thing given the current state of the Fediverse, please don't fuck it up for us by being toxic in the comments.
Could someone explain number 2 to me? A lot of big words, and I have trouble to understand what it's trying to say.
It's claiming that pushing men out of civilized communities, spaces and conversations ultimately leads to them embracing more accepting alt-right ideologies and movements.
Thank you!
Follow up question: What would be a practical example on how to achieve this? To not push men out of civilized communities that is.
Let us talk, dont immediately shut us up if we aren't actively harming the discussion, let men know that their feelings are valid too but that they dont overshadow others feelings (jumping straight to that second half is NOT helpful). Let memes like this one exist without deleting them for lumping them in with the angry assholes
๐๐๐ฃ๏ธ๐ฃ๏ธ
I think it has to happen in person.
At the heart of this is the unfortunate fact that nuance is lost in online discussion. The reason that the bear scenario is so notable is it is so polarising. "yes! That's how I feel!" vs "you're reducing me to a threat"
An honest and direct conversation between two peers is far more likely to have a lasting effect. Hearing what the lived experience is directly from the person who's experiencing it is far, far more more compelling than the stark bear statement.
I don't feel unsafe most of the time. But I have felt unsafe and vulnerable before. Thus when a female colleague told me about being followed by a guy in a park while walking her dog, and feeling torn between straight running away and keeping her pet safe, it resonated directly with me. I could see her reliving the experience and see her distress. She shouldn't have to go through that. It's not fair.
That conversation resonated far more completely than the bear tweet.
I don't even think it has to be like, in person, necessarily, I just think it needs to be engaged with in good faith outside of like, the framing of the conversation as being spurned on by some sort of hypothetical, or being spurned on without like. Reportage between two people, without a relationship there pre-established. I've definitely had compelling conversations online, it's just that it happens so often to be kind of, in spite of the larger machine they took place inside of.
The reason I say in person is because if the amount of information which is transmitted via direct conversation is orders of magnitude higher than through eye contact, tone, language and body language.
If you and I were talking right now, I could maintain eye contact, rotate my shoulders so I face you, position my head in a way that says I'm listening, use my voice to indicate that I'm contrite, or uncomfortable, or supportive.
It can be excruciatingly uncomfortable for people who are used to having virtual tools abstract away the hard parts of interaction. But that's exactly what (in this case) women are saying they feel. They feel, in the real world, they're not safe. To me, the weight of that comes from a direct interaction rather than a news article or twitter post.
My opinion etc
Young men are much more likely to be non-conforming to sexist cultural/gender norms and stereotypes, which often leads to them being ostracized more by general society and makes it easier for grifters (like manosphere influencers) to take ahold of them and radicalize them with alt-right and/or extremely misogynistic beliefs.
There are plenty of amazing feminist role models, but the right's form of propoganda is so much more enticing because it tells you that everyone else is the problem and you're superior to others, rather than ask you to give a shot at understanding reality like leftist influences do. That goes with anything on the right, fascists are a lot more motivating and good at gaining/rallying radical supporters because it's so much easier to get people on your side if you're allowed to lie about everything. So naturally, impressionable โ and extremely vulnerable and emotionally volatile โ young men gravitate towards the extreme negative influences due to how our society and education is poorly set up to prevent that.
And in this case how sexism and toxic masculinity is deeply ingrained into our society that so many of these young men are made to feel like they're "not real men" by those around them, it really pushes them towards this even more. Rather than reject the idea of a "real man" or a "real woman", they embrace them even more and convince themselves that they are the realest men, and OTHERS are pathetic.
It's a lot easier to identify with the bad guys if you're assumed to be a bad guy.
"Women think I'm more dangerous than a bear? What the hell? I never did anything"
Followed by
"hey what this guy on YouTube says is true, women sexualise themselves, I mean look at instagram. This isn't my problem,."
I know this is a bit of an over simplification but thought 1 is what I thought.
I'm a bit older, tho and my second thought was - "but ive never felt unsafe alone with a woman, definitely have felt unsafe around some men."
It blames women who express their fear of being scared of men for the violence commited by men against women
I think your post is exactly what is criticized by OP. In the first part of the post it is explicitly stated men should not talk over the fear of women. A message like yours seems to blame people just because they criticize the way of discussion in some places. I think it is obvious that men are influenced in a possible negative way, when they are always seen as danger. At least for me it probably contributed to my low self esteem, especially in all sex/gender related topics. I think, we as men do so much harm, I don't want to take part in this. But i took it to the extreme, so I was ashamed of everything sexual about me. But as OP said, all of this doesn't invalidate the feeling of any woman. But for example this situation here is not governed by fear, still it seems you can't discuss the social effects of this sentiment "against" man, without discrediting the other side. Sure, violence done mainly to women is the most important topic. But if men always get portrayed as danger, I can understand some are open to other, more misogynist worldviews.
Read their post history, it's a troll
Gr8 b8 m8