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this post was submitted on 09 May 2024
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Why do people need to act the way you think they do?
Why can a group of people not enjoy the way they live and want to keep it. Why are you right for saying a country should be forced to change?
I'm making an observation that any resistance to change is just wishful thinking. Even if you tried very hard to preserve a culture as it is, the causes and conditions that created that culture are also subject to change, and so the culture that arises from those causes and conditions will change as well. You've attached yourself to your idea of what your culture is (or should be), and decided that since you prefer that idea, then it's acceptable to use force against other people to attain it.
I, personally, think that using the might of the government to enforce cultural values is not only crazy, but also stupid, deadly, and wasteful. Not everyone agrees with me, and that's fine, you're free to disagree and join the ranks of other whacko authoritarian countries that use violence to enforce cultural norms. But that's not the kind of place I want to live, myself.
By the way, I noticed your username, Wanderer. That wouldn't per chance be a reference to one of the names of Odin, would it? I know Hedonism's quite popular among, well, certain groups, so it caught my attention.
You seem to conflicting everything I had said and what the argument is about. No one is saying the government should force culture to remain static. That's such a ridiculous premise and such a bad faith comment.
The issue is Germans enjoy their way of life and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Germans have seen the culture change with an influx of immigrants that do not reflect or adapt to German culture.
No one should dictate how a country should change but it is being forced to change by immigrants in a way that Germans do not want. If Germans want their culture, they do not want people coming over and bringing another culture that is replacing their own why is that bad? Why should an American try to control a foreign culture? Should have the right the live how they want and Germans culture and liberty differ to that if others and that is in jeopardy.
My name is based on the fact that I love experiencing other cultures, travelling, living in different places. Also that I Wandered over from Reddit so it's a bit of a mixed comment. I'm not sure what you are alluding to. Can you be more clear?
Wanderer is one one of the names Odin uses while travelling the earth. Hedonism is also quite popular among Neo Nazis. It is an unfortunate truth that Nazis end up embracing and adopting things that other people also enjoy, so I was trying to ask about it politely.
I'm not saying that Americans should control your culture. All I'm saying is that it sounds like you want to use the force of government to steer your culture to be a certain way and to force compliance, and that's a very dangerous thing indeed. Such movements, however well intentioned they may seem in the moment, often get co-opted by people with bad things in mind. Where do you draw the line on what a good German is? Someone who speaks German? Someone who eats German food? Someone who demonstrates a strong Christian faith? Maybe the government decides that good Germans don't join labor unions, and if you question the government, well, that's not being a good German, is it?
And how far should the government go to guarantee German culture? Does it stop with preventing just Slavs and Brown people from immigrating, or will you remove the ones who've immigrated already? What about the children who grew up there and are German in all but skin tone, should the government kick them out too, or do you separate them from their family? What about if people speak French in public, should they be arrested? (Yes, ofc, but that was a bad example) These kinds of things never end well, imo. I'm just trying to suggest that you don't step on the rake, not control you, but don't let me get in the way of a good time.
Well I don't know anything about that.
The fact the think having an immigration policy is enough to make someone a Neo Nazi is an incredibly low bar. It's this sort of stupidity that is pushing people away from the left.
You are conflicting things. I don't know where you are getting this all from. You must understand that German culture exists. You must understand than at least some Germans, if not most like their culture. This is about people that are not German with a culture that is not German coming to Germany and pushing out German culture. That's what people have an issue with. If German culture changes no one has an issue with that, it's the fact that change is being forced by outsiders that is the issue.
All your arguments are just ridiculous. I'm not talking about German government we are talking about culture. I honestly can't understand why you are changing the narrative.
Again. On about different things. It's like you live in 1984 and not the real world. Why do so many people pretend immigration doesn't affect a country? Why live in that denial?
On the question of Nazis, I must beg your pardon. I know an actual IRL Nazi (or perhaps more), because I knew them before they were Nazis. What I now know on hindsight to be bad faith questions about cultural preservation and immigration was my initial introduction to their new ideology.
As for my concerns about the government, I raise them because I am telling you that you're asking for a one-sided coin. You want government policy to enforce a German culture without the authoritarianism. This is a nonsense thing that belongs in the realm of dragons and unicorns. I am speaking to you as a citizen of a country who has fucked up horribly many separate times and continues to do so, in the hopes that I might help prevent another horrible fuck up.
Reducing immigration is not an authoritarian policy. Its crazy you think it is.
That's a basic government policy.
On the question of Nazis, I must beg your pardon. I know an actual IRL Nazi (or perhaps more), because I knew them before they were Nazis. What I now know on hindsight to be bad faith questions about cultural preservation and immigration was my initial introduction to their new ideology.
On the question of immigration, I think what's being asked for here isn't just modest controls. You might say that, but the language about Germans feeling forced out of their own country would suggest to me that the order of the day is something a little more robust. I think I can be forgiven for that estimation. You can't have it both ways, if you start giving the government extra power to start flexing on immigrants and non-conforming cultures, it's eventually going to get used against you, too. You're never so deep in the in-group as you might think.
The number of people going for cultural enforcement narratives is tiny compared to those being somewhat at unease at the speed of change, or concentration of change in particular areas -- "Kreuzberg isn't Germany" kind of thing no it was never Germany in the first place it's always been Prussian and they're not getting any less civilised with immigration, either, Berliners have always been rude. They're fucking proud of being rude, it's what passes as culture in that excuse for a city.
The AfD, sure, is talking about deporting Germans with foreign surnames -- prompting wide-spread protests by everyone else. Conservatives may or may not get their underwear in a twist over pork-free options on the menu, the question they're asking themselves is "will I be allowed to eat pork in the future". There's a feeling (and do I need to emphasise this: feeling) that their dietary habits are under attack by Muslims on the one flank, and the Green party and their "vegan dictatorship" on another. Meaning: The reaction is not tied to immigration as-such, it is simply a resistance to change, or advocacy. It's perceived as political, and it arguably even is -- Greens want their veggie day in canteens to lower overall meat consumption, while Muslims are saying "yo we don't want to choose the vegetarian option every day can you folks eat something else but pork for once". And it's not like Rinderrouladen would be any worse without pork so that's not an issue, at least not a culinary one.
The solution? Keep things simmering on low flame. Mind the rate of change, mind the reaction, don't call people racist or climate deniers or whatnot for wanting their pork chops. Pork chops are good. Noone is going to take away pork chops. Pork chops will exist in the future. You don't alleviate fears by getting out the rocket stove.
On the flipside you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone on any side of the political spectrum who argues that there should be pork Döner. In fact, it's illegal to call a vertical pork skewer Döner: You can have veal or lamb, also poultry but then you have to explicitly mention the type of meat. Turks brought it here, everyone likes it (even Nazis!), Turks (by and large) don't eat pork and not necessarily for religious reasons, Döner never contained pork, pork doesn't belong in Döner just as Rostbratwurst isn't made with goat meat.
The left has always been good at identifying structural issues, the right at hitting emotional chords. The left needs to get better at it, much better. People are worried about pork chops being under attack? Then, simultaneously with your veggie day initiative, say that certain traditional recipes should be protected, along the lines of "don't let Nestle and Kraft tell you how to make your pork chops! Defend our culinary tradition!" and voila noone's going to worry about pork chops getting outlawed. Simple as fucking that.
If something like a "German culture" ever existed, it never existed isolated and unchanged by other cultures. It's a short-sighted illusion to think that. And that illusion is used to justify racist and xenophobic positions. Culture is defined by communication, by change and exchange, and thrived when borders were crossed peacefully.