138
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 10 Feb 2024
138 points (77.2% liked)
Fediverse
27398 readers
2311 users here now
A community to talk about the Fediverse and all it's related services using ActivityPub (Mastodon, Lemmy, KBin, etc).
If you wanted to get help with moderating your own community then head over to !moderators@lemmy.world!
Rules
- Posts must be on topic.
- Be respectful of others.
- Cite the sources used for graphs and other statistics.
- Follow the general Lemmy.world rules.
Learn more at these websites: Join The Fediverse Wiki, Fediverse.info, Wikipedia Page, The Federation Info (Stats), FediDB (Stats), Sub Rehab (Reddit Migration), Search Lemmy
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
I'm sorry, but as a cis heterosexual man who has trans friends and has turned away from all things Harry Potter and JK Rowling in utter disgust, this strikes me as attempting to ignore the obvious transphobia of the TERF author in the hope of keeping your head in the sand and residing in a place of nostalgia solely because transgendered people aren't the majority.
I get your desire to grow the Fediverse, but if you want to create a community around a fandom, perhaps you should choose a piece of media that embraces inclusion rather than one that is simply popular?
Stop looking into your past fandoms with nostalgic rose tinted glasses, acknowledge that you can't have Hogwartz without the hatred, and find media that is straight up more inclusive.
Damn, you gotts love those shortcuts. You love HP ? You're a transphobe biggot horrible person. Come on, grow up.
Nah. Didn't call you or anyone else a transphobe. Did i? Make your case that you're not simply wanting to enjoy HP while ignoring how hurtful JK's rhetoric has been to the trans community. You're turning a blind eye to the pain a minority community is enduring. That doesn't make you a transphobe, that makes you indifferent to the harm that trans people have and will continue to endure because of JK's transphobic bigotry.
The company you keep isn't inherently transphobic, but it does show you don't care about this particular issue, which puts you in the company of transphobes. Again, the company you keep reflects on your character. And I personally find that crowd distasteful, and I'm on the internet expressing it as such until the conversation ends.
I await another one of your witty retorts.
So the trans people that still like Harry Potter don’t mean anything?
Welp, they're not trans anymore aparently
If you limit yourself to media created only by authors that past your particular purity test your going to have a very narrow view of the world. There is a reason the HP fandom is popular and I don't think it's because it's because it's made up of budding transphobes.
I don't think it's particularly hard to find authors who aren't actively spreading hate, actually. And I don't think Rowling's level of transphobia is a particularly specific purity test.
Plus, Rowling takes an active role in promoting hate. She's loud about it. She has a big platform because HP is so popular, and I think that makes her especially dangerous.
She certainly seems to put her money where her mouth is too.
I've read Rowlings original HP books. They were decent. My current stance is as simple as no longer supporting her work nor supporting groups that continue to. I'm calling out you and anyone else that thinks they can some how support trans rights and still enjoy the HP universe. You're trying to absolve yourself of somehow not being in the company of transphobic Harry Potter fans, when you clearly are. That doesn't make you inherently transphobic, but it does indicate that you love HP more than you dislike JK's transphobic rhetoric. Sure you can verbally condemn JK's transphobic rhetoric, but if you continue to engage with her content after having knowledge of her bigotry, it indicates you're willing to turn a blind eye to hate speech in the interest of nostalgia. Probably also out of loneliness and a desperation for community.
Where do the trans people that still like Harry Potter fit in in your world?
Holy fuck. I like Harry Potter and want to speak about it, so what? Because JK made a few announcements? Words do damage and I get that it's already hard being trans and she isn't helping. But acting like this is just building more walls, dividing an already fucked humankind for no good reason.
I respect anyone's choice to be trans, but then you'll have to let me discuss HP without judgement as well. And if you won't, then you're the problem. Because I will still respect anyone trans, but I won't respect you.
Seems like a pretty good to reason.
And choice to be trans? I dunno if it’s a choice anymore than I “choose” to love the same sex.
I don't mean you can't choose to stay clear of HP yourself. What I'm hinting at is that you can disassociate with a group without the drama. HP fans aren't all bigots, that's obvious right? I like Wagner's music, I'm not a fucking Nazi. It's such a weird hill to die on with everything going on.
It's not the point, and I hope you got that but just couldn't leave without slapping my wrist.
Yeah words matter. But thanks for clarifying it wasn't your point.
Nobody's gonna call you a Nazi for liking Wagner. But I will say you like Hitler's favorite musician and if you start hanging out with other Wagner enthusiasts, you might very well find yourself in the company of Nazis. Sure they aren't all Nazis, and I'm sure that if you were to find out some or most of them were , you'd rightly distance yourself from the group. Right?
My original argument isn't about the quality of the works in question, it's about whether it's okay to ignore the hateful rhetoric of JKR and the harm she causes trans people with said rhetoric, solely in the interest of creating and engaging in community around her work.
It's insensitive to a group already marginalized in societies at large because to form a community around HP inherently excludes them, not because trans people can't see the value in HP or it's literary quality, but because they can't disassociate the work from the author. JKR is a TERF, has helped spearhead a TERF movement amongst her accolades, targeting trans people specifically with hate speech, all within recent memory.
Additionally, Wagner, while a controversial figure as Hitler's favorite musician, was never explicitly anti-semitic. The same cannot be said of JK Rowling and her transphobic rhetoric. So the comparison isn't quite as astute as you might believe it to be.
"choice to be trans"
Well there you go, transphobia pretending to disguise itself. Go ahead and try to justify your wording, you've already lost plenty of people's respect. Of course if that "doesn't matter" to you, you probably shouldn't have brought it up.
Sure, the human race is particularly divided right now, but trying to create a fan group around a brand founded by an outspoken outright TERF who has done real harm to a marginalized group deserves to be called out for what it is: a group willing to turn a blind eye to hate speech.
Saying we can somehow separate the good the work has done for some people, from the harm the author has done to the specific minority of trans people, is naive at best, and sympathizing with bigotry at worst.
Think about the community you're trying to create. It is inherently anti-trans, by the very nature of it's association with the author.
But hey, if that's the kind of company you'd like to keep, then at least we all know who you like to associate with.
It's not inherently anti-trans. How can you say that, can't you see what OP wrote? And then you're trying to put a stample on me for not being a good enough supporter of the cause, so bring out the guillotines! Sometimes I feel like the trans communities greatest enemy is it's strongest proponents.
You can't speak for every trans person, neither can I. But if you think no one trans likes HP, or think that if someone trans likes HP they aren't really trans, then you can fuck right off. And if that's not what you're saying, then let it be?
People are weird, let them. If they aren't actively trashing other people they aren't doing harm. Stop being upset about things no one's yet to do to you. You just come of as an leftist incel.
in my friend groups, quite a few people are binging hogwarts legacy at the moment.
most of them are trans. nobody is outraged. they just have jk blocked on twitter. they're still potter fans.
there's an obsessive hate in a lot of trans communities that nobody talks about. the "you like this book series so you're a terf!" type mentality is really tiresome.
Its not lost on trans activists that trans people themselves can engage in the same type of careless behavior that results in the support of bigotry.
If they enjoy HP, that's fine, but to deny that positive discourse around the franchise supports JKR and subtly and overtly, as well as reinforces her bigotry, is naive.
There are plenty of people who are willing to do the easy thing even if it ends up being harmful to themselves and others. Trans people are no exception to this kind of behavior.
It's not like I haven't encountered abrasive trans people, but oftentimes their anger and resentment comes from a place that is completely understandable. They often have to put so much of their grievances aside to assuage the masses because otherwise they are immediately villified, even amongst those that are supposed to be their supporters.
I personally don't have much respect for those that are willing to turn a blind eye to the harm others obviously do just to go support them directly or indirectly for the sake of enjoying a piece of somewhat entertaining content.
The discomfort of seeing trans people getting angry about this shouldn't inherently mean whoever brought up the grievance in a vehement manner ia immediately in the wrong. Sure, maybe they were a jerk about expressing it, but it doesn't mean they were wrong. And dancing around it trying to be nice about the ”seeing both sides of the story" disxourse has proven ineffective at changing the discourse, so yeah, people are emptional and human and get frustrated when they dont feel heard, so they shout.
They know it won't help, but what other option have you left them then? You've proven with your words, silence, actions, and inactions, that ultimately you don't stand with them. You stand with HP, and as uncomfortable a truth as it is that you all refuse to acknowledge, you stand with JKR.
amazing. the very first line told me everything I need to know about what kind of person you really are.
"those trans people don't act the same way as me, so they're obviously wrong."
grow up, man. not everyone is going to agree with your weird victim-obsessed ideals.
Not a quote. You're intentionally misinterpreting what I posted. I'll just keave this here for you to read again because you obviously would rather engage in throwing hot garbage around than produce a valid counterpoint.
My original post again was:
If they enjoy HP, that's fine, but to deny that positive discourse around the franchise supports JKR and subtly and overtly, as well as reinforces her bigotry, is naive.
There are plenty of people who are willing to do the easy thing even if it ends up being harmful to themselves and others. Trans people are no exception to this kind of behavior.
It's not like I haven't encountered abrasive trans people, but oftentimes their anger and resentment comes from a place that is completely understandable. They often have to put so much of their grievances aside to assuage the masses because otherwise they are immediately villified, even amongst those that are supposed to be their supporters.
I personally don't have much respect for those that are willing to turn a blind eye to the harm others obviously do just to go support them directly or indirectly for the sake of enjoying a piece of somewhat entertaining content.
The discomfort of seeing trans people getting angry about this shouldn't inherently mean whoever brought up the grievance in a vehement manner ia immediately in the wrong. Sure, maybe they were a jerk about expressing it, but it doesn't mean they were wrong. And dancing around it trying to be nice about the ”seeing both sides of the story" disxourse has proven ineffective at changing the discourse, so yeah, people are emptional and human and get frustrated when they dont feel heard, so they shout.
They know it won't help, but what other option have you left them then? You've proven with your words, silence, actions, and inactions, that ultimately you don't stand with them. You stand with HP, and as uncomfortable a truth as it is that you all refuse to acknowledge, you stand with JKR.
I'm somehow failing to find your misquote within my original post. Could you please point out which line has this hot garbage?:
Cuz nowhere did I even indicate this. I don't want them to think the same as me. I'm expressing my opinion that you obviously disagree with. But to misquote me is petty and pointless. Either present a valid counterpoint or take your ball and go home.
Sorry, but no. You can sit by the sidelines and cause harm. It's been done many times over throughout history, and sadly I'm sure we'll see it again. I'm literally witnessing a bunch of people ignore the plight of a marginalized group right here, right now.
I'm calling it out because it's exactly that. It's literally the least amount of effort I can put in while still doing what I think is right, not fucking nothing, and certainly not engaging in a community that is transphobe adjacent.
Again, company you keep reflects on you, ignoring a problem can be just as harmful as actively causing harm under certain circumstances.
Are these those specific circumstances? Maybe not. But I'll be damned if I don't call out indifference to suffering when I see it, which is exactly what this is.
I'm not speaking for all trans people. I'm speaking for me. It's the internet, try and stop me. If any person, trans or otherwise, wants to engage with me and argue why I'm wrong and presents a solid argument, I'd be more than happy to hear it.
But so far, all I'm hearing is a bunch of pearl clutching rhetoric dancing around the fact that to support HP in any way shape or form can only help JKR, and by proxy, her transphobic agenda. If that's what you all want to do, then go ahead. But don't pretend that's not what's happening.
I get it, you think you're doing good, I'd ask you to reconsider that. You're claiming someone is doing something no one has even considered yet. Judge the result, not your idea of what they're trying to do. You're painting a monster no one else sees.
I won't answer your second post to me since it wasn't targeted at you, and I'm lazy.
Yeah. That wait and see approach hasn't usually worked out for minorities...
No. I'm pointing out that due to nostalgia and a desire for community, HP fans willing to turn a blind eye to the hateful rhetoric of JKR are engaging with transphobic communities, even if the community rules attempts to discourage outright hate speech. If you can't see how that's harmful, you're blind.
Fair enough, though I'm happy to engage in discourse on that point as well.
Perfectly said
So where’s do trans people that still like Harry Potter fit into your equation?
Should we just ignore what they think?
Trans people are allowed to make their own choices about how they deal with Rowlings transphobia.