201
UN experts alarmed by Alabama plan to kill prisoner using untried gas method
(www.theguardian.com)
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 04 Jan 2024
201 points (92.8% liked)
News
21897 readers
3924 users here now
Welcome to the News community!
Rules:
1. Be civil
Attack the argument, not the person. No racism/sexism/bigotry. Good faith argumentation only. This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban.
2. All posts should contain a source (url) that is as reliable and unbiased as possible and must only contain one link.
Obvious right or left wing sources will be removed at the mods discretion. We have an actively updated blocklist, which you can see here: https://lemmy.world/post/2246130 if you feel like any website is missing, contact the mods. Supporting links can be added in comments or posted seperately but not to the post body.
3. No bots, spam or self-promotion.
Only approved bots, which follow the guidelines for bots set by the instance, are allowed.
4. Post titles should be the same as the article used as source.
Posts which titles don’t match the source won’t be removed, but the autoMod will notify you, and if your title misrepresents the original article, the post will be deleted. If the site changed their headline, the bot might still contact you, just ignore it, we won’t delete your post.
5. Only recent news is allowed.
Posts must be news from the most recent 30 days.
6. All posts must be news articles.
No opinion pieces, Listicles, editorials or celebrity gossip is allowed. All posts will be judged on a case-by-case basis.
7. No duplicate posts.
If a source you used was already posted by someone else, the autoMod will leave a message. Please remove your post if the autoMod is correct. If the post that matches your post is very old, we refer you to rule 5.
8. Misinformation is prohibited.
Misinformation / propaganda is strictly prohibited. Any comment or post containing or linking to misinformation will be removed. If you feel that your post has been removed in error, credible sources must be provided.
9. No link shorteners.
The auto mod will contact you if a link shortener is detected, please delete your post if they are right.
10. Don't copy entire article in your post body
For copyright reasons, you are not allowed to copy an entire article into your post body. This is an instance wide rule, that is strictly enforced in this community.
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
They'd have to fuck it up to a truly astonishing degree for it to be anywhere near as bad as a failed execution using the other methods currently in use. Like maybe use chlorine gas instead of nitrogen.
They just need to not have good seals on the mask so non-nitrogen air leaks in which would give the same symptoms as slow suffocation.
Note that they keep fucking up to an astonishing degree, so it is likely to happen with any method they try.
No. It would either work more slowly or it wouldn't work. There would be no pain.
The feeling of suffocation comes from a buildup of CO2 in the body, not from a lack of oxygen.
Since regular air is pretty close to 80/20 nitrogen and oxygen, simply removing the oxygen results in a painless, odorless death.
It's actually a concern for people using rebreathers. If the CO2 scrubber keeps working but new oxygen isn't introduced into the system, the diver will go from feeling fine to passing out without ever knowing it.
Air leaks means that the co2 is not going to be efficiently removed, and your example of a diver is actually supporting the point that the seal needs to be really good for it to be effective. Note that the person drifting off in an execution knows they are dying which is different than just drifting off unknowingly. Painless doesn't mean it isn't causing stress from the knowledge of imminent death.
Plus the underlying context of the state fucking up all of their execution methods shows they will fuck this up too. It doesn't matter how good the method is in theory when they are incompetent.
You really don't know what you're talking about here.
A poor mask seal won't cause them to inhale enough of their exhaled CO2 unless they're also putting a bag over their head, and the level of atmospheric CO2 doesn't cause the sensation of suffocation, otherwise you'd feel like you were suffocating at all times.
The death penalty is barbaric, but if you're going to do it, this is the least-painful method, and one in which botching the execution simply results in nothing happening, as opposed to ther methods where it causes pain and injury.
Yes, the psychological pain/stress isn't alleviated by nitrogen. I personally think the biggest improvement they could make (aside from abolising the death penalty) would be to do it without a mask in a hyperbaric chamber where the elevated partial pressure of nitrogen would result in nitrogen narcosis and may relieve some of the stress.
A poor seal affects air going in and being pulled out, because the outside air can flow past the air next to the mouth and down the exit tube without going through the person's lungs. Especially if the faulty seal is on the exit tube connections, which is the kind of fuck up that the state is fully capable of doing.
Without that circulation, they will keep breathing the same air, which will build up CO2.
The system is complex and you apparently assume it is simple and comparable to a room full of nitrogen. The mask is actually more complex.
You clearly don't know what you are talking about.
I'm not talking out of my ass because I read some random opinions online. Are you a University lecturer that teaches courses on the medical effects of pressurized gasses? I am. Do you have certification granting you authority to service and inspect medical gas systems, regulators, full-face masks, and pressure vessels? I do.
A blocked exhalation valve and a bad seal are not the same thing. They're actually the opposite, though a blocked valve can result in a bad seal as the pressure inside the mask inceases. But the escaping high-pressure gas will result in a venturi effect that will pull away the exhaled gasses.
It's actually harder to screw it up with a mask versus a room because the small volume of air compared to the necessary rate of flow causes the air to be more turbulent and prevents dead-air spaces. Basically, the incoming nitrogen flushes out the contents of the mask unless the seal is so bad that the nitrogen doesn't flow in the mask at all, in which case the CO2 escapes into the room through the same shitty seals that don't contain the Nitrogen.
The biggest risk is someone simply forgetting to turn the valve to let in the nitrogen, though that's dead-simple to prevent with a 1-way gasket that allows outside air in if the pressure in the mask drops below outside pressure (when the victim inhales). Though in that particular case it is important that the CO2 not be allowed to form a dead zone, which is done by having more 1-way gaskets in front of the mouth and nose that doesn't allow exhaled gasses back.
You know - the same high-tech shit they use in the base of $12 snorkels that work for decades in salt water.
First, I doubt your claimed credentials because you are an anonymous person on the internet.
Second, the actual process they are using was provided in a highly reacted version that experts have pointed out makes the process unclear. The only reason to hide this information is to obscure the fact that it was poorly designed.
Third, the state is unlikely to have someone who is qualified to design and implement this process correctly because people who work with medical systems are unlikely to be involved with the death penalty, and this is not the same thing as a snorkel or they would be using that.
All that said, you keep acting like it is simple while dancing around the fact that they keep fucking up simple things when executing people. Who cares how easy it is to make chocolate milk when the person who is making it still fucks it up?
You really don't seem to understand how little is required to make it work.
This snorkel mask and a hose to a nitrogen canister would be incredibly effective.
I'm not even joking. They made a 3D-printable adapter to the mask for attaching N99 filters. It's safe because it isolates incoming and outgoing air, which would make it work great.
And that's a hundred mask. The final design would obviously have more going on. For a couple hundred you can have one with an on-demand regulator operating just fine.
Or just use a SCBA (firefighting) mask hooked up to a nitrogen tank.
Are they doing that or just using something cobbled together from home depot leftovers? That is the concern.
The hundred dollar thing I just showed you IS a Home Depot solution.
Or they could grab a decommissioned mask from any fire department and hook it up to a nitrogen tank they got from Home Depot and it would work even better as a regulated system.
Or they can use a 40 dollar painting respirator hooked up to the nitrogen tank. That would also work great as a positive pressure system.
Or it wouldn't work at all. That's the whole idea. It's really hard to fuck it up, and if you do, then nothing happens at all.
Either it allows the nitrogen in and the CO2 out, or the nitrogen pressure pops the seal on a jammed mask and they can breathe just fine, or it doesn't show any air movement at all because the gas isn't on which is blindingly obvious within the first second and the mask is removed.
All it is is displacing regular 21/78 air with hypoxic air (doesn't even need to be pure N2 - lethal hypoxia is around 0.1PPO²) - neither of which contain enough CO2 to give the sensation of suffocation.
If you don't understand the science, please STFU.
A bad seal means that the co2 is not being removed properly and not being replaced with nitrogen as designed. Plus the person knows they are being killed, which makes the smallest physical symptoms more noticeable since people do notice things they are expecting.
Being hostile while defending the state that keeps fucking up executions makes you look like an ass.