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this post was submitted on 18 Jul 2023
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I practice meditation quite seriously, but I stopped telling people I'm spiritual. I really am not interested in ghost stories, gods and angels at all.
Me neither. It's alright to learn superstitions and traditional folk beliefs, but what you shouldn't do is allow them to get in the way of safety and productivity. E.g. taking herbal supplements with adverse side effects.
I, too, used to have a phase where I went around telling people I was "agnostic", but looking back, the only real reason I kept saying that was to show an apologist face towards my conservative Christian family. Really I was just atheist, but it took me quite a while for me to be able to confidently say that.
There are two kinds of atheists, gnostic and agnostic. Gnostic atheists claim to know for a fact that there are no gods (an impossible claim) and agnostic atheists don't claim to know it for a fact, but believe it based on the available evidence. Most atheists are agnostic ones.
I've heard that distinction as well, but it always struck me as coming from a religious position and working backwards, as if there is something inherently special about belief in a god or gods separate from belief or disbelief in other things that lack evidence.
I don't have to explain that I'm gnostic in my disbelief of vampires even though if a vampire was biting on my neck I'd believe in them. If I saw a sleigh pulled by reindeer flying through the sky, I'd believe in Santa, but absent any evidence and lots of reasons to believe Santa is impossible as an all-knowing, seemingly time-stopping magical being, I don't think we need a qualifier like "gnostic" or "agnostic" when discussing disbelief in Santa, because it is "impossible to know."
Gnostic and Agnostic seems like gotcha terminology for religious folk that capitalize on the more scientific view that if there is proof/evidence something exists, I will believe in it, but until then I will use reason to believe it does not to suggest there is a class of atheists that seems open to the idea of religion and another that doesn't. In reality, if you're starting from the atheist side, it's more:
"I am certain gods do not exist in the same way I am certain vampires and Santa Claus don't exist, in that unless and until reliable evidence is available to suggest they do there is no reason to believe in them. But as with any of my beliefs, if reliable evidence or proof is offered I'm willing to reconsider my position."
It's not coming from a religious position. Theistic religions tout gnostic theism, full stop. The reason agnostic vs gnostic atheism is a thing is purely because belief in god is such a big deal socially. It's a claim that can't help but be addressed because of how ingrained it is in everyday life (particularly in the US). If people were inclined to discriminate against you based on your belief or non-belief in vampires or Santa Claus, then your stance on them would be just as prominent. Your quote at the bottom is agnostic atheism, but it doesn't necessarily say anything about being "open to religion." If there were some sort of proof that a god or gods existed, it doesn't mean that any religion is correct about them. For example, I know for a fact that the god of the Bible does not exist because he's a clearly defined character and the nature of the world disproves his existence. However, I don't claim to know that no gods exist, period.
Do gnostic atheist even exist? I think the distinction is only there to tease people who think that you can really know anything..
They do, and people who think they know everything are very unpleasant to talk to!
Ugh, I can imagine. I think gnostic $anything$ would be unpleasant to talk to.
The gnostic/agnostic atheist/theist distinction is quite useful. Also the words are fun to pronounce so that's a bonus
And a general rule is that both gnostic atheists and theists are insufferable.
Meditation is excellent.
I keep my religion to myself. My beliefs are my own and private. Let others define providence and the unknown how they want, it's none of my business. Better to focus on being a good person and doing good things.
Wait is meditation a "spiritual" act? Or am I misunderstanding?
I thought mediation was just about self control and mindfulness and being calm.
I struggle with using the word spirituality w/ meditation as well, because of the mentioned connotations. But I think this is roughly the definition people use that does kinda fit: "Spirituality involves the recognition of a feeling or sense or belief that there is something greater than myself, something more to being human than sensory experience, and that the greater whole of which we are part is cosmic or divine in nature."
And that feeling does resonate with me a bit. I don't believe in any supernatural or religious deity, but I do believe we're all part of something bigger in a very literal sense. Meditating and being mindful and reflecting on life are ways for me to remember that bigger whole.
So in that sense, I'm "spiritual" but I don't use that word personally.
That's what most people think, but when you go on long meditation retreats the experiences that you can have are quite profound and very far beyond being calm and in control. Those experiences are transformative. Spiritual is not really a bad word for it, except that with meditation it is all so very clear. You can explain exactly what happened, what the transformative insight was and how it changes your perspective. It is spiritual, yet lucid and repeatable.
Thank you. I wish people would stop identifying as "spiritual." For some, it's a way to avoid saying, "I'm evangelical and I want to convert you," for others its "I grew up religious and I don't believe but it feels good," while for others its, "I'm an atheist but I am afraid you will judge me if I say as much." etc. It is a meaningless assertion that makes me suspect someone is vacuous until proven otherwise.