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this post was submitted on 13 Dec 2023
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Jesus Christ.
It's relative. If you've seen people around you being abused you become a little desensitized to what 'abuse' is. If abuse is normal every day living for one person, and not for another; the later sees it as abuse and the former sees it as another normal day.
Put yourself in the shoes of a Gaza resident anytime in the last 50+ years and consider yourself lucky that your reality allows you to be able to identify an atrocity when you see one.
Consider the reality these people have experienced for generations before leveling judgement on their opinions.
The entire situation is nauseating. I understand that Israel is a U.S. ally and that sometimes supporting allies means making decisions against better judgement, but... I would rather the U.S. wasn't involved in this at all. It's a bloody mess. Literally.
Yeah, no, I don't think I'm gonna play apologist for the opinion that "Hundreds of Israeli civilians had it coming for the crime of existing, I'm glad that they were gunned down by a terrorist attack, this isn't a war crime in the least."
That kind of "But they've been living in fear! It's different!" justification is the same shit Israel has used throughout its history to justify its atrocities, and it's no more valid in the mouth of Israel than it is in Palestine's.
You're missing the point. For whatever it's worth, I do agree with what you've written here. But what I'm talking about is perspective in understanding why the opinion polls shows the numbers they do.
What I'm NOT talking about is it being an excuse for behaviour. Surely you can understand why attitudes and opinions might differ between geographic regions and due to history.
Get off your soapbox, and try to understand why people think the way they do. You may come closer to actually understanding the nuances of reality instead of cocooning yourself in talking points. It's all about relative perspective if you want to understand numbers being thrown around
Edit:
Just to be more clear, what I'm talking about is the difference between
"Hundreds of Israeli civilians had it coming for the crime of existing, I'm glad that they were gunned down by a terrorist attack, this isn't a war crime in the least."
And
"Hundreds of civilians have been killed for years, I've seen it happening and nothing has changed over a reasonable period of time. I guess this isn't a war crime."
'Understanding why' and 'playing apologist for' are two entirely different games. I understand why the Nazis garnered support in Weimar Germany. I understand why the Israeli security state developed and has such wide support amongst Israelis. I understand why Palestinians support terrorism while locked in a purgatory of occupation and imprisonment.
I'm not going to play apologist for them. I'm not going to sit here and say "Oh, I guess that's a little bad, but it's okay, because they're suffering too."
Supporting war crimes is horrifying. "They've had atrocities inflicted on them often too!", yeah, and so have the Israelis, and yet when Israeli polls come out with horrifying numbers like "70%+ of Israelis support bombing Palestinian civilians", I'm aghast at that horrific shit too.
It's not okay. It's not to be justified.
Man, I don't know what you think I'm doing here. What talking points am I cocooning myself in? Please, give an example.
Dude, maybe I'm not explaining myself properly because I feel like we're talking about two different things.
You said you "understand why Palestinians support terrorism while locked in a purgatory of occupation and imprisonment" if you understand this, then do you think their (meaning the average person) definitions of certain terms may be different to what we see?
If my definition of normal is not your definition of normal then can you judge the "normalcy"?
Again, I'm not saying this excuses behavior. But I do think it sheds light on why the poll is at 10%. The average Palestinian has seen copious amounts of indiscriminate violence (as has the average Israeli resident), do you reckon they might have a different bar for what constitutes a war crime or atrocity based on what they've been seeing around them for years?
Personally, I think this low poll numbers speaks more to what people are defining as an atrocity over there. Shits gotten so bad that murder is common.
As for talking points...man, I want to apologize for that. I felt myself getting emotionally invested in this back and forth and really shouldn't have said that. I think "apologist" just triggered me because it's gained a bit of a stigma
My point here is twofold:
That not defining murdering civilians as a war crime is horrifying regardless of whether or not you've had war crimes perpetrated on you, and that Israel's extremists peddle the same basic line of "It's just paying them back", and it's fucking horrifying there too.
That the deliberate denial of atrocities is a common phenomenon amongst radicalized supporters of causes, such as how British imperialists denied their atrocities and ignored evidence to the contrary, or the denial amongst some Americans of US atrocities at home and abroad.
Whether either or both apply, it is fucking disgusting and horrifying. Again, Israel makes the same excuses for their high level of support for murdering Palestinians - it's no more justified there than it is here.
I agree with you on both points. Whats missing is the difference in definition of "war crime" and "atrocity" by the average citizen. These polls weren't conducted solely on politicians, dignitaries, intellectuals, and the like.
If you don't recognize an act as a war crime any more because of your lived experience. Are you able to willfully apply (or not apply) that label correctly?
Again, thinking about why the poll reflects the attitude towards Hamas + atrocities. Its not a matter of tit-for-tat I think; that is, its not "well they've been committing these 'atrocities' against us, so us doing it to them is valid/justified". I think its "things have been happening and i don't know what a war crime is, so when we do the same thing to them it can't be a war crime...can it?"
In order for "deliberate denial of atrocities" to apply, you have to recognize an atrocity first and then deliberately deny it. Undoubtedly, the case amongst most intellectuals inside Gaza is that they recognize it very well. But I'd argue it isn't true for the average citizen on either side of the fence. I'm talking about the people that are watching all this unfold from inside the border, Israelis and Palestinians. Shop keepers, taxi drivers, etc.
In fact, I'd wager that if a similar poll was conducted on Israeli citizens they'd most likely have a similar response to "did the IDF commit atrocities". Its status quo over there. I'm not debating if these people are right or wrong in their thinking, I imagine there's a whole conversation to be had around the notion.
So while it is definitely not right to say that Hamas did not commit war crimes or that they aren't responsible for atrocities, I think its important to understand (and not vilify) that the very definitions we're using for those terms may not be consistent inside that particular region. And that this should play into our accounting for why only 10% of Palestinians think Hamas committed war crimes.
That's it. That last line, that's all I've been trying to say
I mentioned that, specifically. My point is that that standard is fucking horrible on either side.
Without question. This is the scary part when it comes to "after the conflict". There is an entire population of people for whom violence on this level has been normalized; but vilifying the people caught up in their respective propaganda machines and the machinations of their respective governments isn't going to mend fences down the line. At the geo-political level, they may shake hands and even settle differences one day...but the familiarity with intense violence will need to be reckoned with and reconciled for the general population on both sides.
They have lived in fear under Hamas, but also are not going to side with the people deleting generations of their people from the face of the earth daily.
It's not about 'sides', it's about not believing that Hamas has done things that it is well-recorded and easily found doing.
a yes, bevause they have time and internetbto browser their phone all day
Internet penetration rate in Palestine is upwards of 70%, Jesus Christ
i was talking about gaza
The poll is of people in Gaza and the West Bank.
Israel cut their power dipshit 🙄
Oh, so the poll didn't happen? Glad to see you didn't read the fucking article, which was conducted in Gaza with in person interviews during the 'humanitarian pause'. Business as usual for you, Queermunist, more than happy to read in your own opinions to anything you didn't actually read. Israel didn't cut power to the West Bank, by the way, but I know better at this point to expect anything but dribbling contrarianism from you.
If they don't have power, how are they going to be reading internet articles? 🙄 🙄 🙄
And they cut off fuel, which means the generators can't run, which means power is extremely limited. Most people can't charge their phones.
It's this collapse in truth that worries me more than anything. People will simply ignore reality rather than admit that this is more complicated than good side v. bad side.
What's the saying? "In war, truth is the first casualty"?
Sadly not new, nor likely to stop anytime soon. All we can do, as outside observers, is try to champion the truth, and avoid embracing lies, regardless of whether they fit our biases or not.
Only found if you have an internet connection ... which Gazans haven't had regularily since Oct 7.
Gazans haven't had one regularly, but the West Bank has largely maintained service, and has a considerably higher level of support for Hamas.
I don't think 'lack of access to information' is the issue here.
And the West Bank isn't Gaza, is it?
Please stop trying to justify the unjustifiable.
... the West Bank was polled here along with Gaza.
What am I trying to justify?
Thinking that Palestinians in the West Bank should somehow override how Gazans polled, ofc without Gazans having stable access to the internet.
The West Bank Palestinians are pissed at the Zionists for burning down their homes and taking property that isn't theirs to take. Colonialism at its finest right there.
Gazans are dying by the thousands, and since 50% of the Gazan population was children (prior to Oct 7) Israel/IDF practiced child slaughter.
Oh, and here's a tidbit from the poll you obviously missed ... nonetheless, the majority of the Palestinians remains unsupportive of Hamas.
The... the poll that you posted and that I am citing is a poll of both Gazans and West Bank residents. It's not 'overriding' anything.
... what does any of that have to do with me expressing horror at the denial of Hamas's war crimes? Where have I expressed the least support for Israel in this conflict? Where have I denied Israeli colonialism, ethnic cleansing, and attempts at genocide?
Where? Because it's really looking like I'm not being responded to, but an imaginary version of an Israel supporter that has zero relevance to the comments I'm actually making.
And again how in the fuck would they know about the war crimes when they haven't had reliable, steady access to the internet?
You seem to think they should know by osmosis.
Again, the West Bank has access to the internet, and even the internet blackouts in Gaza are intermittent to coincide with Israeli offences and minimize proof of Israeli atrocities, not steady.
If your point is "Gazans don't or shouldn't be included in that 90% denial of war crimes", then, if I accept that for the sake of argument, that's still fucking horrifying that residents of the West Bank overwhelmingly approve or deny the war crimes.
So are West Bank Palestians supposed to vote twice so Gazans are covered?
Like I don't understand why you're harping on about the West Bank? The poll was done on all Palestinians (or at least the ones who had phone access). Why are you focusing on the West Bank then?
I don't understand how you got that from what I said. How is that at all an answer?
Again, in the article you posted it specifically mentions doing in-person interviews in Gaza.
Because you're saying Gaza should be excluded for lack of information?
I said that because you continuously focused on the West Bank.
This you? Because that's what started this whole aside about Gaza needing to be excluded.
Mate, this person is either too stupid or too unwilling to actually give a real response to you. Please save your sanity.
I tend to suspect tunnel-vision when these things happens. Happens to all of us, so I try not to form any long-lasting impressions, unless I see a pattern of it.
Consider the following:
The IDF defends and arms terrorists and commits terrorist acts on a daily basis
All israeli adults serve military duty in the IDF and are reservists. Unlike the Palestinians which are not all part of the Hamas army.
Current adult Israelis voted for Netanyahu which violently opresses them and commits genocide.
Hamas did not shoot any children
Hamas did not rape any women
Hamas did not torture any prisoners
This is in retaliation to the IDF which has been comitting all these war crimes even before 7 Oct.
If you ask Ukranians about their army killing colonists in Crimea they're probably pretty fine with it as well.
Indeed, including terrorists like Hamas.
A country having universal conscription does not make every civilian a fucking target. What the fuck are you, Henry Kissinger (Rest In Piss)?
Fucking doubt.
Oh, all of them?
Again, I reiterate - that Israel is horrible does not justify Hamas being horrible or Palestinians supporting the horrible things that Hamas does, or vice-versa.
I would be deeply disappointed if they did, because having armed forces murdering civilians is fucking horrific.
You're in for a treat when you start reading about the Azov brigade. They've got literal Nazi's.
And I still support Ukraine. But the western media trying to paint them as the cleanest war heroes ever is just a fairy tale. Violent resistance against oppression is never a pretty tale of roses. Especially in Hamas case when more than half the "soldiers" are untrained 19 year olds with guns
If israel treated Palestinians they would have all been appalled by what Hamas does.
The Hamas approval rating is basically a "how evil is israel" poll.
https://youtu.be/mc5iG3DX7ho?si=k_JRYozXtplUgx6T
Zero evidence after two months == it didn't happen 100%.
If there was any evidence the IDF would have been showing it on national TV for three weeks straight.
Jesus Christ, imagine not knowing that the Azov Regiment hasn't been an independent paramilitary for almost a fucking decade now.
Good job gobbling up Russian propaganda, though! Low-information twats who think they know everything are great for unwittingly spreading false information that suits their biases!
And what's the "How are the war crimes?" question? Also a "How evil is Israel?" poll?
Fucking lmao.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/last-defenders-mariupol-what-is-ukraines-azov-regiment-2022-05-17/
AZOV'S ORIGINS
The Azov Regiment began as one of many militias of volunteer fighters who banded together to fight pro-Russian separatists backed by Moscow who carved out two breakaway regions in eastern Ukraine in 2014 after Russia annexed the Crimean peninsula.
Mariupol is the spiritual home of the Azov Regiment which it helped Ukraine recapture from pro-Russian fighters in 2014 and where it had a permanent base until the 2022 invasion.
The militia emerged from Andriy Biletskiy's Patriot of Ukraine organisation that critics say championed white nationalist, anti-immigrant extreme-right ideas.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/1/who-are-the-azov-regiment
Azov is a far-right all-volunteer infantry military unit whose members – estimated at 900 – are ultra-nationalists and accused of harbouring neo-Nazi and white supremacist ideology.
The unit was initially formed as a volunteer group in May 2014 out of the ultra-nationalist Patriot of Ukraine gang, and the neo-Nazi Social National Assembly (SNA) group. Both groups engaged in xenophobic and neo-Nazi ideals and physically assaulted migrants, the Roma community and people opposing their views.
I'm pretty sure that they've got some Nazi shit going on there. Mind showing me where im misinformed?
https://lens.monash.edu/@politics-society/2022/08/19/1384992/much-azov-about-nothing-how-the-ukrainian-neo-nazis-canard-fooled-the-world
Russia will use any excuse it wants to invade. If Azov didn't exist it woud be NATO being too close. Putin just wants more land that's all.
That said you can't just discard the Azov origin which is only 8 years old. That's like saying ISIS origins don't matter. The old gang with a new name is just the old gang.
This article is a great summary. Especially near the middle: https://www.thenation.com/article/world/azov-battalion-neo-nazi/
"
There is a kernel of truth in the allegations that Azov is just a Russian bogeyman. The Kremlin and Ukraine’s neo-Nazis have a symbiotic relationship that reaches to the very heart of this war: Putin needed a pretext to justify his illegal invasion; for that, he turned to Azov. Moscow seized on Azov’s existence to paint all of Ukraine as a cesspool of fascism in need of “denazification.” Azov is the linchpin in Putin’s narrative—without it, his excuse for the war is gone.
In turn, Azov’s defenders have capitalized on Russia’s obsession by implying that anyone who criticizes the group is a Putin apologist. Moscow and Azov use each other to defend the indefensible: For Russia, it’s acceptable to invade a sovereign country to fight neo-Nazis; for the West, it’s appropriate to lionize neo-Nazis because they’re fighting Russia
OUT WITH THE OLD, IN WITH THE OLD:
The problem with insisting that Azov’s neo-Nazism is just a Russian lie is the abundance of evidence to the contrary. Seven years’ worth of Western articles chronicling the group’s nature was too much to ignore. This left Azov’s whitewashers with the unenviable task of cobbling together a come-to-Jesus story in which Azov began as a neo-Nazi paramilitary group but somehow saw the error of its ways before 2022.
The narrative that emerged goes like this: (a) Azov’s deradicalization started after it joined Ukraine’s National Guard—over time, Biletsky and other veterans of the 2014 battalion were filtered out, implying that the new leadership is neo-Nazi free; (b) yes, there are a few leftover neo-Nazis in the National Corps, Azov’s political party; but (c) that doesn’t matter, because the Azov Regiment—later a brigade—has long since separated from the National Corps, which is little more than a fringe political sideshow.
"
It's literally the opposite though - it's a new gang with the old name, which is why useful idiots keep repeating neonazi claims about Azov. Recruits have been assigned to Azov by standard Ukrainian National Guard's standards since it's absorption and the purging of many of its radical members in 2015. In an organization where the term of enlistment is 3 years, and not permanent, unlike, you know, ISIS, or even voluntary political parties, 8 years is a long fucking time.
The article relies on the presumption that Western media reporting on Azov pre-2022 weren't offering surface level analysis that anyone who actually followed the fucking situation knew was outdated by 2017. But believe what you want - useful idiots always do.
A bit further down the article it also goes over the current members of Azov and how they are basically the same as before and they're still saying Nazi shit.
"
Prokopenko, for his part, came out of the White Boys Club, superfans of the Dynamo Kyiv soccer team (far-right groups organized around soccer teams are common across Europe), who celebrated him when he was given an award in October 2022. The group’s Facebook posts have typically included phrases like “100% White” and “88” (code for “Heil Hitler”), praise for Holocaust perpetrators, and Waffen-SS insignia.
During his time in Azov, Prokopenko’s platoon was unofficially called the Borodach Division. Its insignia was the Totenkopf, the skull-and-crossbones design used by the SS, which has become a popular neo-Nazi symbol. (Azov’s version added some fascist whimsy by giving the skull a beard and hipster mustache.)
Azov’s current acting commander—who took over in June 2022, after Prokopenko surrendered to Russian forces—is also an original Azov veteran.> By 2021, the Azov Movement’s position as a premier hub of transnational white supremacy was firmly established. It was tracked by researchers; its fighters were banned from receiving military aid by Congress; and it was kicked off Facebook. The State Department declared its political wing a “nationalist hate group.” Journalists exposed its enlistment of fighters from Sweden to Australia.
"