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this post was submitted on 13 Dec 2023
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'Understanding why' and 'playing apologist for' are two entirely different games. I understand why the Nazis garnered support in Weimar Germany. I understand why the Israeli security state developed and has such wide support amongst Israelis. I understand why Palestinians support terrorism while locked in a purgatory of occupation and imprisonment.
I'm not going to play apologist for them. I'm not going to sit here and say "Oh, I guess that's a little bad, but it's okay, because they're suffering too."
Supporting war crimes is horrifying. "They've had atrocities inflicted on them often too!", yeah, and so have the Israelis, and yet when Israeli polls come out with horrifying numbers like "70%+ of Israelis support bombing Palestinian civilians", I'm aghast at that horrific shit too.
It's not okay. It's not to be justified.
Man, I don't know what you think I'm doing here. What talking points am I cocooning myself in? Please, give an example.
Dude, maybe I'm not explaining myself properly because I feel like we're talking about two different things.
You said you "understand why Palestinians support terrorism while locked in a purgatory of occupation and imprisonment" if you understand this, then do you think their (meaning the average person) definitions of certain terms may be different to what we see?
If my definition of normal is not your definition of normal then can you judge the "normalcy"?
Again, I'm not saying this excuses behavior. But I do think it sheds light on why the poll is at 10%. The average Palestinian has seen copious amounts of indiscriminate violence (as has the average Israeli resident), do you reckon they might have a different bar for what constitutes a war crime or atrocity based on what they've been seeing around them for years?
Personally, I think this low poll numbers speaks more to what people are defining as an atrocity over there. Shits gotten so bad that murder is common.
As for talking points...man, I want to apologize for that. I felt myself getting emotionally invested in this back and forth and really shouldn't have said that. I think "apologist" just triggered me because it's gained a bit of a stigma
My point here is twofold:
That not defining murdering civilians as a war crime is horrifying regardless of whether or not you've had war crimes perpetrated on you, and that Israel's extremists peddle the same basic line of "It's just paying them back", and it's fucking horrifying there too.
That the deliberate denial of atrocities is a common phenomenon amongst radicalized supporters of causes, such as how British imperialists denied their atrocities and ignored evidence to the contrary, or the denial amongst some Americans of US atrocities at home and abroad.
Whether either or both apply, it is fucking disgusting and horrifying. Again, Israel makes the same excuses for their high level of support for murdering Palestinians - it's no more justified there than it is here.
I agree with you on both points. Whats missing is the difference in definition of "war crime" and "atrocity" by the average citizen. These polls weren't conducted solely on politicians, dignitaries, intellectuals, and the like.
If you don't recognize an act as a war crime any more because of your lived experience. Are you able to willfully apply (or not apply) that label correctly?
Again, thinking about why the poll reflects the attitude towards Hamas + atrocities. Its not a matter of tit-for-tat I think; that is, its not "well they've been committing these 'atrocities' against us, so us doing it to them is valid/justified". I think its "things have been happening and i don't know what a war crime is, so when we do the same thing to them it can't be a war crime...can it?"
In order for "deliberate denial of atrocities" to apply, you have to recognize an atrocity first and then deliberately deny it. Undoubtedly, the case amongst most intellectuals inside Gaza is that they recognize it very well. But I'd argue it isn't true for the average citizen on either side of the fence. I'm talking about the people that are watching all this unfold from inside the border, Israelis and Palestinians. Shop keepers, taxi drivers, etc.
In fact, I'd wager that if a similar poll was conducted on Israeli citizens they'd most likely have a similar response to "did the IDF commit atrocities". Its status quo over there. I'm not debating if these people are right or wrong in their thinking, I imagine there's a whole conversation to be had around the notion.
So while it is definitely not right to say that Hamas did not commit war crimes or that they aren't responsible for atrocities, I think its important to understand (and not vilify) that the very definitions we're using for those terms may not be consistent inside that particular region. And that this should play into our accounting for why only 10% of Palestinians think Hamas committed war crimes.
That's it. That last line, that's all I've been trying to say
I mentioned that, specifically. My point is that that standard is fucking horrible on either side.
Without question. This is the scary part when it comes to "after the conflict". There is an entire population of people for whom violence on this level has been normalized; but vilifying the people caught up in their respective propaganda machines and the machinations of their respective governments isn't going to mend fences down the line. At the geo-political level, they may shake hands and even settle differences one day...but the familiarity with intense violence will need to be reckoned with and reconciled for the general population on both sides.