970
Putin is urging women to have as many as 8 children after so many Russians died in his war with Ukraine
(www.businessinsider.com)
this post was submitted on 30 Nov 2023
970 points (97.5% liked)
World News
39358 readers
2423 users here now
A community for discussing events around the World
Rules:
-
Rule 1: posts have the following requirements:
- Post news articles only
- Video links are NOT articles and will be removed.
- Title must match the article headline
- Not United States Internal News
- Recent (Past 30 Days)
- Screenshots/links to other social media sites (Twitter/X/Facebook/Youtube/reddit, etc.) are explicitly forbidden, as are link shorteners.
-
Rule 2: Do not copy the entire article into your post. The key points in 1-2 paragraphs is allowed (even encouraged!), but large segments of articles posted in the body will result in the post being removed. If you have to stop and think "Is this fair use?", it probably isn't. Archive links, especially the ones created on link submission, are absolutely allowed but those that avoid paywalls are not.
-
Rule 3: Opinions articles, or Articles based on misinformation/propaganda may be removed. Sources that have a Low or Very Low factual reporting rating or MBFC Credibility Rating may be removed.
-
Rule 4: Posts or comments that are homophobic, transphobic, racist, sexist, anti-religious, or ableist will be removed. “Ironic” prejudice is just prejudiced.
-
Posts and comments must abide by the lemmy.world terms of service UPDATED AS OF 10/19
-
Rule 5: Keep it civil. It's OK to say the subject of an article is behaving like a (pejorative, pejorative). It's NOT OK to say another USER is (pejorative). Strong language is fine, just not directed at other members. Engage in good-faith and with respect! This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban.
Similarly, if you see posts along these lines, do not engage. Report them, block them, and live a happier life than they do. We see too many slapfights that boil down to "Mom! He's bugging me!" and "I'm not touching you!" Going forward, slapfights will result in removed comments and temp bans to cool off.
-
Rule 6: Memes, spam, other low effort posting, reposts, misinformation, advocating violence, off-topic, trolling, offensive, regarding the moderators or meta in content may be removed at any time.
-
Rule 7: We didn't USED to need a rule about how many posts one could make in a day, then someone posted NINETEEN articles in a single day. Not comments, FULL ARTICLES. If you're posting more than say, 10 or so, consider going outside and touching grass. We reserve the right to limit over-posting so a single user does not dominate the front page.
We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.
All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.
Lemmy World Partners
News !news@lemmy.world
Politics !politics@lemmy.world
World Politics !globalpolitics@lemmy.world
Recommendations
For Firefox users, there is media bias / propaganda / fact check plugin.
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/media-bias-fact-check/
- Consider including the article’s mediabiasfactcheck.com/ link
founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
Good luck solving the fertility problem. I don't think any country has managed to figure it out yet.
It's not a problem. When us women have the resources to be able to educate ourselves in the realities of the bull shit that's been peddled to us, we stop being brood mares.
It isn't a problem. There are already too many people on the Earth.
There are enough resources, they're just not distributed correctly.
And they never will be, which is why there is too many people.
Nonsense. Sure, we are getting what we need out of the planet, but we are destroying it in the process. Modern agriculture absolutely cannot continue producing what it is now indefinitely. Fertilizer alone is massive issue, never mind the destruction of old growth forest for farmland, or the contributions to climate change.
Nonsense.
Close to one third of total agricultural production is wasted yearly, with almost half of that never even leaving the fields.
Fertilizers are another scarecrow but there is a never ending source of nitrogen and phosphor right at hand going to waste in many countries with no second thought: waste water treatment muds.
And there are more fields laying fallow today than there were 50 years ago in many countries.
More forest is cut down to be replaced by palm tree for oil than for conventional agriculture and the clearing for cattle is just bad manegement of lands.
Reducing our agricultural output by 1/3 wouldn't come close to making it sustainable, though it would certainly be an improvement. Fertilizer costs have been a big problem worldwide, so if using waste products were practical we would be doing it already. Shifting weather patterns from climate change are why a lot of those fields are fallow, and that's only going to get worse.
Countries that use less than average resources are working far harder to use more resources than rich countries are working to use less, and I don't see a plan to make that change. As individual choices go, no choice a person can make will reduce their impact more than having one less child than they otherwise would. We just don't need 10 billion people on this planet.
Adoption of new alternatives is not easy nor fast.
Try and give a call to your local waste water treatment plant and ask for a tour. Tell them you want to understand better what they are doing and how, what destination they give to muds, etc. You'll be surprised to know most countries sent those nutrient rich by-products to landfills for decades and only very recently the muds started to be valued.
And are you sure about that? Because I'd quicker point to population exodus from rural to city areas.
The discussion about cutting back on agricultural production is just starting. Too much goes to waste, when too many go without. The point is that by reducing production, resource management will be a forced point of action. Debateable but it is as valid as any other idea.
But like it or not, the human population will peak and stabilize at the 10 billion and we can sustain ourselves without burning the house down.
Name one society that has ever managed significant decreases in production of anything to help the environment. We've found ways to lower the impact of increasing production, and we've even found ways to reduce the impact of current production. I can't think of a single instance of a society broadly adopting a reduction of goods and services for the environment.
The fact is that, while there are many improvements to be made, every one of those improvements would work better with a lower population. There are also no realistic projections of humanity reaching a reasonable level of long term sustainability. We also have a long history of badly failing to reach projected sustainability targets. Ignoring a multiplicative factor that impacts sustainability in every area is just foolish.
Yeah, we are projected to peak around 10b. 9b would be better though, or even 9.9b. 1b would have been fantastic, though probably still too high. But what happens when you get all the lifestyle and efficiency increases you dream of? How do you know that population trends won't shift? It doesn't take much. Just a +/-0.2 difference in children per family can have a profound impact in one direction or the other. You are gambling everything on an assumption that trends won't change. Trends always change.
It never existed because it was never a problem.
And the problem here is not to reduce for the sake of environment but for the sake of not wasting resources for production: energy, water, machinery, etc. Things that cost money that can not be recouped. Environmental impact is a very welcome off shoot.
There are at least three possible scenarios to counter your position:
nothing changes and current trend of population shrinking maintains
everything gets better, standards of life improve and number of offspring decreases for increase of parental investment per child
everything gets worse and either we kill ourselves or the planet does
Numbers, statistics, projections, whatever argument we put on the table, boiled down, comes to these.
You are both oversimplifying the reality and overcomplicating it at the same time. There are thousands of different aspects to sustainability, including many that we simply haven't identified yet. Modern farming methods that provide us such great yields are simultaneously robbing us of important nutrients that aren't being replenished in the soil. This has a knock on effect to meat and dairy as well. We are running out of fresh water for farming, residential, and industrial use. Forever chemicals are building up in the oceans, aquafers, soil, and air. Oceans and rivers are running out of fish. Noise pollution, light pollution, heat pollution, and just ordinary misplaced trash don't seem likely to abate any time soon. Good luck getting cooperation on any of these issues, when we can't even get people to wear masks in the middle of a plague.
Every one of these aspects of sustainability will relate differently to your scenarios. In the end, we are left with the simple truth that every effort to address every one of these issues will be aided by a reduced population. Either reduced from where it is today, or reduced from whatever future predictions you want to work from. (I've been ignoring the fact that humanity has generally been pretty shit about accurately predicting the future, because those predictions are entirely irrelevant to my point).
I'm not talking about culling the population, ethnic cleansing, forced sterilization, etc. People should be absolutely free to make their own family planning choices. But there are lots of ways to promote having fewer children without being coercive. Child free lifestyles should be more respected. Birth control should be more widely available. People should be more aware of the fragility of this planet, and the impact we have on it. Having one less kid than one would otherwise have is always going to blow away the impact of whatever other things we do to promote sustainability.
i don't believe you can do that without artificially selecting one part of the populace, but not another, or just having disproportionate impacts. even this comment was written in english, and even if it's well-intentioned, everyone who doesn't read english is not subject to the propaganda in it. by posting it on lemmy, you are also targeting lemmy and the broader fediverse as a demographic. so everyone who's not online is already immune to this propaganda.
Your pushing the boundaries of "propaganda" pretty extensively there. Sure, technically it could apply, but then it applies to any political opinion communicated in any way by anyone, including you.
Of course it won't be communicated equally. Neither will messages encouraging more children, something far more common from current governments. The right wing in this country (and others) explicitly encourages more "white Christian" children because of "replacement theory". That's far more sinister than suggesting that people in general should consider the impact before having more children.
Nothing in reality is ever totally fair, just like no society is ever totally sustainable. A perpetual motion machine is only possible in an ideal world, and so is a sustainable society. We will only ever be able to approximate sustainability, and that will require contributions systemic and cultural changes. That means "propaganda", and it means that some demographics will cooperate more than others, meaning it won't be "fair" regardless of the approach.
but you see how this is exactly what eugenicists would do, right? create propaganda to discourage undesirables from procreating and create ineffective propaganda for their preferred demographic group. the intention doesn't matter, to me. it's all eugenicist propaganda as far as I'm concerned.
You just love that word, "propaganda", but where did "undesirables" come in? I never mentioned targeting anyone, or even running an information campaign at all. I'm pointing out the reality that fewer people would be better. You can't argue against that, so you make a bunch of ridiculous assumptions and attack those.
I think that when this topic is discussed, people should be honest and rational about it. You clearly don't.
I'm pointing out how quickly malthusianism becomes eugenics.
Even as slippery slope arguments go, this is truly pathetic.
are you suggesting I'm too vigilant against eugenicist propaganda? better than laying the groundwork for a genocide, I think.
i think calling your advocacy propaganda rubbed you the wrong way, and you can't see what i'm saying.
I can see what your saying just fine. I'm not the one who's unhinged here.
yes, i can.
Then I gotta wonder why you haven't. All you've claimed is that there are other options. All things being equal, a world with fewer people needs fewer resources. If we get the whole world on solar, that will still be true. If we get everyone to give up meat, it will still be true. If we stop polluting our waterways it will still be true. You have not argued against that, and you can't do so in any rational way.
this is some ecofascist shit
LOL, sure it is.
I know.
Got anything but ad hominems? You pretty much proved my point.
please don't spread malthusianism.
Please stop throwing around labels like they are arguments.
you ARE running an information campaign.
No YOU are running an information campaign. Fuck this is getting dumb.