I am so so divided on if I should vote for biden or not. I wanna vote third party to at least do something or should I just stay home and protest and advocate where I can? Thoughts?
this post was submitted on 10 Nov 2023
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Unfortunately, you should vote for the lesser of two evils. Biden is shit, but he isn't a fascist/theocrat.
Locally, look for candidates that want to push for election reformation, push these initiatives yourself, look for activists groups promoting it. Getting rid of first past the post voting is the first step in opening the door for more than 2 parties.
While I wish we had a candidate that wasn't 80. I've actually been pleasantly surprised by Biden's administration.
And yes, the risk on this one is too great for third party. I genuinely do not believe that democracy will survive another term with the orange turd. He's already tried to overthrow our government once. He has made it clear that he plans to succeed through force if reelected.
the fact that you still believe that democracy exists (or ever existed, but I digress) despite him and his cohorts doing literally everything to show all you libs otherwise, is truly staggering...
I know you feel cool and radical when you say it, but when you call people libs, you just sound like a trump supporter.
Democracy isn’t black and white. It exists along a continuum. Voters in the US do have some influence on policy outcomes, albeit less than they might in a more democratic system.
If democracy didn't exist, the right wouldn't be trying to prevent us from voting.
Agreed. The time to push for third parties is every day except presidential election day. That's just the reality of the system right now.
Change doesn't begin at the top. It begins at the bottom. Many state and local elections across the US already use ranked choice voting, which is the bare minimum we would need to have more than 2 viable candidates in the presidential election. We need to push for ranked choice voting (or something better; it's not the be-all-end-all of voting systems!) in federal elections as well.
We have a generation of voters now who are literally too young to remember the 2000 election. If you're one of them, I urge you to look it up. I heard the same song back then. Look back and tell me if they were right or wrong, if you really believe that Gore would have been the same as Bush.
Don't let perfect be the enemy of good.
Yeah! Unfortunately there's currently a law blocking anything better than RCV to be used for Congress.
I will not vote for the lesser of two genocides, and if you do you are a genocide supporter.
Have fun standing aside and doing nothing to stop them. Your choice to not participate is simply authorization to continue on the same path without resistance.
Are you going to donate to Biden's campaign or volunteer for him? If you don't, you're just standing aside.
No, I am busy working for campaigns for my city and state level government bodies. People who want to change the first past the post voting system that cements the system we have. People who are against the fascist israeli government, as well as the US's participation is constant destabilization of nations around the world. I have a much larger impact on my local government who, in turn, are my representatives with power balanced against the executive office.
One of our most successful campaigns was the recent amendment change to enshrine abortion access. Also our promotion of information about Jim Jordan's proven role in protecting Sandusky is one of the more successful methods this state has seen in terms of turning people from a political party. We are also working to keep Sobe out of our area as we have spent billions cleaning the pollution from the steel mills and Sobe will just revert things. So, I am stretched a little thin on that front.
What have you done? Are you willing, or capable, to maybe take up arms to change things? Do you have any experience in life that would make you have some idea if you could? What have you done besides decide you are better than people for allowing these things to go on without challenge?
I'm going to vote down ticket for Democrats, I'm just not voting for Biden. What's the difference?
I'm not willing to talk about that with a stranger on a public forum, but I've been busy with certain things that aren't the next game of voteball.
"I've been busy with certain things that aren't the next game of voteball."
I believe you
I can't help but notice you didn't answer the more important question: I’m going to vote down ticket for Democrats, I’m just not voting for Biden. What’s the difference?
Because as far as I can see, by your logic you're donating to Trump and volunteering for Trump by choosing to not donate to Biden or volunteer for Biden.
I did answer your question, I am actively working where I have the most impact, and putting my vote where it will have the least shitty impact I have access to. If you need a more granular answer: What I do work for locally is undermining Trump's, and his ilk's, foundation. This happens by some of things I mentioned we have accomplished. By using Jordan's proven past as a pedophile protector, while talking to people face to face, we have seen more people switch their vote than on any other piece of information we have records for. By getting progressive amendments written into the constitution we make it much harder for it to be over-turned. By going around showing people our efforts actually led to better legal structures for weed, abortion rights, the school system, the local economy, historic crime rates, and turned people away from the GOP, it is markedly encouraging people to vote. The more people who vote, the less likely the greater of two evils is elected.
Voting straight ticket democrat means you are also voting for people who agree with biden on palastine. Not voting for the president is increasing the probability for trump, or someone worse, to get in office, instead of biden. If biden is still the democratic candidate, he will still be better than any of the republicans running against him. The majority of people don't vote. People who are more aligned with the democrats are more likely not to vote than republicans. This is how people even worse than biden are an actual possibility. Even the republicans acknowledge that the more people that vote, the less likely they are to get elected.
But you didn't answer the question, not really. You haven't explained why voting for down ticket Dems and refusing to vote for Biden is any different from volunteering for down ticket Dems and refusing to volunteer for or donate to Biden (which is what you are doing).
The result with the most harm reduction is a split government with Democrats in control of the Legislature, because if Trump was president Democrats would oppose Israel's genocide. Under Biden even Bernie is refusing to endorse a ceasefire, but if Trump was president you know he and other Dems lining up under Biden would fight against Trump.
Because biden has massive money interest in his campaign, where as my local government office holders do not. I have finite time and resources, they have finite time and resources, I have a larger impact on them, they have a larger impact on me. All the money in the world is already going into the corporatist's campaign to vi for my vote, and I am casting it. With the exception of interpersonal connections I am not going to change people's mind about Biden because they are already inundated with campaign propaganda about him. Every time I have campaigned for a presidential candidate, one that has a chance of actually winning, I never got "oh, I didn't know much, or anything, about them, I didn't realize their positions, now I am going to consider this information" where as I get that pretty often with local candidates. So, my vote goes to the tally of the lesser evil, my campaigning subjects are better served by my time, and their exposure supports the president ultimately as well.
Where as you do nothing in support of Biden, while doing something that is well understood to actually benefit his, worse, competitors. This is the difference. Your actions benefit the trumps out there, mine support their detractors at that level.
"The result with the most harm reduction is a split government with Democrats in control of the Legislature, because if Trump was president Democrats would oppose Israel's genocide."
Do you actually believe this? If you do, I am sorry to inform you, that you are wrong. One of the handful of things both the GOP and the DNC are in hard agreement on is Israel. Those running against Biden for the GOP are not discussing how they wouldn't support such a horrific act, they are discussing how he isn't doing enough. Even when trump, and bush, and daddy bush, etc. were thumping for Israel, the DNC was right their going "uh-huh, yup, no, I agree, yes, of course." They might make some small grandstanding about how, while they totally support isreal's right to defend it's self, maybe the GOP is a little much, while they try to crush the voices of anyone who disagrees in their party, just like now. The DNC and the GOP are both pro destabilizing other countries who don't bow to our trade, they are both pro indiscriminate killing of people in countries who spurn our trade, they are both willing to slaughter innocent people for corporate profits. The DNC, being a more varied party, has a larger number of detractors, and their base, being more varied, has a large number of detractors, so there is room to wedge open a change against supporting these things. That is the only thing that might make the democrats "better" in this situation.
Now hold on! My one vote has very little impact on an election with millions of voters, so by the same logic it doesn't even matter if I vote in the first place. By the same logic, I'm focusing my votes where they actually matter in local elections and not bothering with the presidential election. Same as you. There is zero difference, you just want to have your cake and eat it too.
And yet the DNC was opposed to Trump moving the US embassy to Israel. Did you forget?
And yet the GOP is disrupting the war in Ukraine. Partisanship is actually a useful tool to hinder the empire. You can't ignore this.
Now you are just stretching to keep your argument seeming sound.
I do both, so I acknowledge they are both worth doing, you are the one who is not. When we had Obama running I actually did work for him because he made the pr move to use mostly grass roots initiatives because it looked great for him, and he didn't need to get the massive corporate campaign sponsors. Not so much for his re-election though.
The DNC opposed the GOP moving the embassy to Jerusalem, we already had one in Israel. They didn't do this to spite the GOP, nor because they do not support Israel, they did it because it's stupid to move the embassy away from the most important political location in the country to a place simply to pander to the second coming crowd. That is what it was too, pandering on the part of the GOP to their base, the actual politicians running the show didn't actually give a shit. The reasoning was completely different and would not apply to israel massacring palastinians due to a hammas attack.
The GOP wants to disrupt the war in Ukraine because they are in bed with russia, ukraine kicked the russian puppet GOP operatives helped to install out, and they don't have as strong of business ties there. So they are picking the country they get the most money from. Which, again, is different than what would happen in israel.
Partisanship is a useful tool for confounding empire, but the situation with helping israel bomb brown people that continually buck US hegemony is not a point of contention that can be used in this way.
Even when the GOP was raising it's hackles, in public, about obama attacking libya, they actually did nothing to stop it. They let it happen because knocking down a country that was refusing to cooperate with the petrodollar was in their interest. So they himmed and hawed on cspan and fox but did nothing to actually disrupt it.
No you don't. You have said it yourself, you don't donate to Biden or volunteer for his campaign.
There's literally no difference, again, you just want to have your cake and eat it too. I refuse. No ceasefire, no votes. It's literally the only leverage I have on this administration and you want me to just give it up because orange man bad. If things look bad enough, Biden actually might relent on this. We have to pressure him until he cracks, and kick him if he doesn't.
There are Democrats right now who are calling for a ceasefire, I guarantee if Trump was president that the vast majority of Democrats would join them in the same demand. Bernie certainly would, instead of the weak lib shit he's doing now. You want to cynically wave this off, but I'm convinced that the public unrest under Trump would be high enough to force even Zionist Democrats to endorse a ceasefire. This can have lasting impacts on the electorate too:
The consequence of the GOP raising its hackles is they riled up their base, and this eventually lead to Trump and the current extremism in their Party. This, in turn, amplified partisanship to such an extent that now the GOP can't even govern without eating themselves alive to own the libs. Hyper-partisanship is now the norm for their Party. Trump has had a lasting impact on Republicans. I'm willing to bet that a second Trump term would radicalize Democrats too, and then we might actually fucking get somewhere.
No ceasefire, no votes. It's not an unreasonable demand. If that means Trump wins then, silver lining, Democrats might actually grow a spine again.
Yes, orange man bad, specifically orange man worse than democrats. The GOP raising it's hackles over libya isn't what created the tea party that led to the maga hats. It was a small, slow growing movement as the democrats alienated rust belt blue collar workers. It exploded into the forward momentum that turned into the maga cult when a black man was elected president. I was traveling around with a camera man friend of mine collecting b-roll of the tea party at the time for a news station. We spent a lot of time sitting just outside of groups of tea partiers, listening to them, from state to state. They felt alienated and then a black man was elected and they lost their shit. Trump simply took that and ran with it. He succeeded because people felt the way about Hillary you do about Biden. Now we have lost the judiciary, possibly for decades, to theocrats.
The members of the DNC who are strongly against what is happening in Israel do not have the influence, and wont have it in time, to do anything for palastine.
I have read many first hand accounts from people leading up to highly authoritarian take overs, and there is a lot of rhetoric from people who were sure that shutting themselves off to politics, not voting for the lesser evil, etc. was reasonable, that it was the only way to exercise influence over politicians they weren't happy about, and that if those extremist reactionaries got into office they would implode and the other side would have to grow a spine as people got fed-up with their bullshit. Spoiler, those parties did implode, but only after taking over and installing something far worse than the status quo. They stayed there until enough violence was applied to stop them, or they ruined their economies so badly that they collapsed. No one living in the aftermath, who maintained this rhetoric, said "worth it!" in the end.
Have you read the 2025 project? If you haven't I highly suggest reading it. It spends almost 1k pages detailing exactly why much of what you say is meaningless to them, and actually would help them in pulling this shit off.
here - Mandate for Leadership: The Conservative Promise Poject 2025 The Presidential Transition Project
https://thf_media.s3.amazonaws.com/project2025/2025_MandateForLeadership_FULL.pdf
If you haven't read it, well, the most egregiously opposed to your political/philosophical alignment element has literally published their play book, or war stratagem, if you will. If you want to think you know anything about what the GOP plans to do, here it is, what they have spent about 50 years laying the groundwork for, in fine detail.
I'm not shutting myself off to politics. I'm voting down ticket! I'm involved in- ~~other ways I'd rather not discuss.~~ I'm just not voting for Biden. That's a completely different supposition than just not voting at all, which is what the 2025 project would assume. Trump only had success because people who refused to vote for Hillary refused to vote down ticket and just stayed home. I'm not doing that.
If Trump doesn't have a cooperative legislature or state governments then he can't accomplish shit. He'll be an impotent cry baby that screams about how this is the most unfair etc etc. Also, like I said, if Trump is in power I am almost certain that partisanship would force Democrats to grow a spine and progressive Dems would be able to recruit a lot of party members because Orange Man Bad.
I. Am. Voting. I'm just not voting for Biden.
Now, if winning the presidency alone is enough for a fascist takeover then that shit is inevitable, unless you think there will never be another Republican president ever again. And if that's enough, then it's better for it to be a dumbass like Trump than a smart fascist.
Reading comprehension
when discussing the zeitgeist of politics leading up to a historic even and listing some of them, saying many people were shutting themselves off to politics, not voting for the lesser evil, etc. It does not mean everyone, nor the person I am addressing, is doing all of those things. It means that is a quick example of the various types of things that were common at the time. You fall into the second one because you are specifically not doing that with the presidency.
You did not read the 2025 Project plan. It is designed to specifically nullify the effects of most local voting powers by using a lot of legally questionable "powers" of the executive office. Meaning the only thing stopping it from being allowed is the USSC, you know, the one they stacked specifically for this, when people took your stance with Hillary. Don't comment on something you haven't read.
... so you're just smearing everything together in a big blob of "them" so you can tear down a strawman.
Am I arguing with ChatGPT? What the fuck is this?
I'm not going to read a 920 page document for an internet argument lol
No, I named 2 common ideas I saw espoused reading first hand accounts leading up to said historical events, one of which is exactly what you did, the other is also a common talking point for the same general crowd. It's not my fault you can't parse a tiny amount of information. How is pointing out that what you are doing, which I am arguing is bad if you don't want a more authoritarian government, has historically been a common thought process leading up to authoritarian control, a strawman? It is literally a historical example of what happens in the type of situation being discussed.
Don't read the document for an internet argument, read it because it is an important piece of information to understand if you want to participate with society in an informed manner. Simply don't comment on the scenario when you don't even know what it is.
You also declined to answer my question about what you do. So, what is it?
Well officer, I'm sure I have no idea what you're talking about.
Then you are voting for the greater of two genocides, which seems worse tbh.
If Trump was President, Democrats would oppose genocide and support a ceasefire. I'm almost certain of it.
So! I'm voting for a split government. Democrats in control of the legislature will keep Trump from being able to really do anything.
And just how is that legislature going to stop him. Couldnt do it when he was blocking weapons from going to Ukraine, won't be able to now.
The legislature can stop him from giving weapons to Israel, so that's at least one genocide they would stop if Trump was president.
No they wouldn't. They would happily work with Republicans to fund Israel. I have no idea where you got it in your head that Democrats have any sort of tendency towards contrarianism; they trip over their own feet rushing to work with the Republicans on anything they can to prove they're "moderate" and "non-partisan".
Not "Republicans" - this is about Trump specifically. They're willing to be partisan when it comes to orange man bad.
This is just completely ahistorical. Democrats repeatedly worked with Trump throughout his presidency. Pelosi and Schumer met with him constantly to try and broker deals. They literally bragged constantly about "crossing the aisle", how they were "moderates". Dems love posturing as the mature adults in the room.
In some instances, it was legitimate to work together. They supported his administration's 2019 infrastructure plan. Trump worked with Dems instead of the GOP to get hurricane relief. Some good spending packages were passed by him working with Dems when the GOP was too disorganized.
In other cases, they should have obstructed harder but didn't. They fast tracked many of his federal judge appointments. Some voted for his supreme court picks. They didn't obstruct his tax cuts enough.
The idea that Democrats were impetulently obstinate with Trump for no reason is a far-right talking point, it has no basis in reality, so I'm not sure why I'm seeing supposed leftists repeating such misinfo. They weren't obstinate enough with Trump, especially when it mattered; that's part of the problem with Democrats! They're far too conciliatory to the right-wing! That's why we hate them, remember?
I distinctly remember Democrats opposing Trump on moving the embassy to Jerusalem. They never fought him as much as they should, but they did fight him. Let's not forget this is also what lead to the rise of the DSA and the largest protest movement in American history. Trump highlights the contradictions and helps libs see who their friends and enemies really are.
Exactly, so we can't rely on Democrats to effectively contain Trump as you suggested we might. They are not strong or reliable enough. They capitulate far too easily.
What really led to the DSA growing so much was Bernie Sanders radicalizing millions with his 2016 run. Then, the squad capitalized on that energy in 2018 and onwards, leading to many DSA members being elected nationwide, which then further grew the organization through the attention they bring.
I know it's not considered "cool" amongst leftists to admit electoralism can ever lead to positive outcomes, but them's the breaks. None of this would have happened if not for them.
They also didn't have a majority. Based on every election since the end of abortion rights? They're going to take the House and hold the Senate, and probably take control of several states.
That's why I'm voting down ticket. I'm just not voting for Biden.
You are why America is what it is today.
STOP VOTING FOR EVIL.
Biden is 100% theocrat. He has a history of being against gay marriage and against abortion because he is Catholic. He is against cannabis legalization because of the religious circles he runs in.
Biden is 100% a fascist. He is making back room deals to try to secure the ability to unilaterally siphon money into a genocide behind closed doors.
We keep voting for the lesser evil, which is still evil, and as such, it keeps getting worse.
When the game is rigged, you flip the board.
They are going to do what they are going to do either way. Make them do it with without public support. Make them do it with a 10% voter turn out. Make them feel the shame.
The entire world seems to be striking, and one by one, those who are on strike are winning over those who thought they were the owners.
Put America on strike. Don't vote until there is someone worth voting for. Don't vote until we have universal healthcare. Don't vote until we have higher education for all. Don't vote until everyone sleeps under a roof after a meal.
Can you explain why you expect low turnout to do anything but hand control of the government to people who demonstrably feel no shame? Because one party keeps trying to lower turnout, saying turnout is bad, and generally trying to remove the ability to vote and for votes to matter, and it's not the one Biden is the point guy for. The people reading Donald Trump: The Man, The Christ, are going to show up, so your argument is, "people who would vote against that shouldn't show up and should cede power to the evangelicals who do".
You can set up for the rebellion and vote. It's not one or the other. Coalition build, do direct action, set up for a general strike... And take 30 minutes out of that to vote for someone who'll make it easier to do praxis, coalition building, etc. (not easy, but easier)
You keep posting unhinged shit like this. I trust that sane people have the good sense and will ignore your rants.
The downvotes help this post be ignored.
You are voting for a genocide, and I am the unhinged one.
That's rich.
OK, you do this, get back to me when it accomplishes something.
Sure thing. Likewise, get back to me when your mental gymnastics finally fully sink America.
Bailing water while the hole gets bigger isn't accomplishing anything. It's wasting time and effort on the wrong thing to ensure the boat sinks.
Not voting is simply an absolute capitulation. The voting system reform thing is already starting, labor organization is growing faster than it has in decades, state constitutions across the US are being changed for the progressive, even in red states like Ohio.
What has not voting accomplished?
This literally isn't true. You're supposed to bail water until the hole is fixed. You can't just do one or the other, you have to do both in tandem.