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50% right is still a failing grade
(lemmy.world)
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this post was submitted on 06 Oct 2023
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Tankies ignoring the agency of other countries so they can blame anything and everything on the US is just a repackaged form of American exceptionalism. They don't believe Russians or Ukrainians are actually people with agency beyond what the US "makes" them do.
I don't recall many people blaming the US as far as I am aware; the common sentiment I hear is mostly blame towards NATO which I can't claim to be particularly educated about. Also you will commonly hear the phrase "critical support" among us communists emphasis on the critical.
A statement so disingenuous it should run for Republican office.
I'm not sure what you mean? I didn't make any claims?
The "So I hear" "as far as I'm aware" "lots of people are saying" shtick is old. The conservatives have beaten you to the abuse of that one. No one buys it anymore. Get new material.
Dawg I simply have no idea what I'm talking about, I was just saying what I've heard and expressing the actual popular sentiment that I've encountered among the very people being criticized? Are you dense? Not everyone is some political master mind out to get you
My guy, you frequent Hexbear. If you expect me to buy the "I've never heard any of this 🥺" routine, you're out of luck.
Nono, I've heard of that tactic but it's really as simple as "these people are saying this thing I dislike" and "no actually I hang out with those people and they usually say this actually".
I'll be entirely clear yes I do read Marxist leninists theory, yes I do think communism is a political ideology that not only can work but can excel. However none of that means I know shit about the Russian Ukraine conflict nor does that mean I particularly believe either side is morally superior; currently my judgement is suspended until I learn more about it.
It's not that deep, I'm not boogie man, and don't really care enough to be that subversive.
I monitor these people, and you can't go ten seconds without them ranting about the US and the Imperial Core and Ukrainian Nazi Proxies.
I've heard and seen way too many tankies over the year play innocent to be trusting. You come in saying "No, actually, this very obvious and apparent phenomenon isn't something I've ever heard before", you don't get the benefit of the doubt, like conservatives who say "Well, I've never heard any of my conservative friends say anything BAD about LGBT folk"
Theoretically possible, but unlikely.
Well if course you can't go far without hearing about how terrible the US is, the US is very capitalist very imperialist and communist are very anti those lol. Idk what you expected. As for the information regarding Ukrainian Nazis, it can't be denied that they exist and in excess (1 is too many imo) but I'm sure there is way more nuance to this war than I am aware of. All in all I really have not actually read much about the Ukraine conflict but war sucks, shits sucks to read, it's depressing as fuck and I can't do it that often.
Also wdym you moniter them lol, what do you think you are? Some kind of fed?
This isn't about people being against the US. It's about people accusing the US for being the puppetmaster behind the war and the Ukrainian government.
No, I'm someone who tries to keep up to date with pro-genocide propaganda, which Hexbear regurgitates at an astounding rate. 'Know thy enemy', and all that jazz.
You know what, no, I am a fed. Fuck it. I could use the paycheck.
NATO has nothing to do with it. Even worse, NATO was created to prevent this kind of thing happening to countries, and Ukraine was “forbidden” to join NATO to make the Russians happy.
Look how that turned out to Ukrainians.
Woah hold on now, hold your horses. NATO has nothing to do with it?
Then why do they openly claim that they did?
https://www.caitlinjohnst.one/p/nato-chief-openly-admits-russia-invaded
Decided I'd atleast look into it if you are going to make such a brazen claim
This is especially interesting https://archive.is/stMC4
Just the damnedest thing https://www.caitlinjohnst.one/p/us-officials-keep-boasting-about
The only way that reading Stoltenberg's comments and then blaming the invasion on NATO makes sense is if you think that Russia has an actual right to decide how other countries choose to align themselves. Putin showed up at NATO's door threatening to beat up a random non-NATO country if NATO didn't kick out half of its members. Russia has no right to demand that countries that willingly signed up to NATO be kicked out. Most of them signed up specifically because of how Russia has frequently acted in the past.
If I come to you and say "do this or I'll punch that guy" and you say "no, fuck off", is it your fault when I then follow through and punch the guy?
Holy shit stop trying to justify what the russians did. Theyre not even communist you dumb tankie
Idk how much I gotta say I don't like Russia, I can hate NATO and their involvement in the war while also hating the war crimes Russia is committing. How can you read that and not see the the war is more complex than a Russian land grab?
Dude all you've ever done in every single conversation is pretend dog whistles arent dog whistles and blame NATO for what Russia did. People can see you post a lot to hexbear. You aren't sneaky.
Dude... I feel this sentiment so hard.
I don't understand why criticising NATO for pressuring Russia to invade is pro Russia. Russia didn't HAVE to invade. Both sides can be at fault here.
It's like these people arguing against you have a vision of the world that's as complex as a gi-joe cartoon. One groups perfectly good and the other is perfectly evil.
No one pressured Russia to invade Ukraine. Being an edgy contrarian does not make what you say nuanced. It makes you a useful tool.
You sound like the communist equivalent of neoconservatives and every bit as insufferable.
I never even made a single claim regarding support for Russia or Ukraine. I'm not educated enough on the topic to take a proper stance, though I'm working on that where I can.
Those people who deny Ukraine and Russia their agency, they also deny agency of all NATO members but US.
Critical support for genocide.
What exactly is being "supported"?
To put it into perspective, I can claim to be a "critical supporter" of the effort to repel Russia's attack on Ukraine, except that unlike people who claim to "critically support" the other side, I'm not claiming to "support" the aggressive oppression of a sovereign country at all.
As such, ostensibly "critical support" for something must mean that you'd rather this shit happen than not. You can't claim "emphasis on the critical" as though that absolves you of that burden. If you were really more critical than supporting then you'd be "critically supporting" the other side.
Fighting nazis I think, most I've heard atleast
Critical support for the fascist regime because there was a group of a couple nazis in Ukraine
Endless civilian bombings, rape and torture of Ukrainians by invading Russians?
"I heard they were just fighting nazis, bro. I'm just coincidentally ignorant about a horrifying war that's been all over the news for years."
"I'm just asking questions! Isn't Germany just invading Poland to protect minorities? That's what I heard! It's not my claim, I'm just spreading it around!"
"Surelly we should hear both sides of the argument!"
I think it's even more abhorrent to claim to "critically support" something while being ignorant, as you claim to be, of what you're supporting. In what world does ignorance and being critical go hand in hand?
Saying you're a critical supporter, then backpedaling to say you're just asking questions, either suggests wilful ignorance, which is the worst kind of disingenuity, or plain laziness in endorsing things you don't care enough to know about, which in the age of internet-fuelled extremism is arguably worse.
The old tankie dilemma - are they assholes or just incredibly stupid?
Trick question, it's usually both.
I really didn't claim any support, as I mentioned to someone else it was a "they say this", "no, it is more accurate to say they say this" situation
You're trying to characterise it as such now, but saying "emphasis on the critical" - that's your input suggesting that this support had merit. Hardly just saying it's a different terminology. You're backpedalling again.
Regardless, a lot of people have chimed in explaining to you exactly why this is so damaging and how little merit your qualification has. If you're as uneducated on the whole situation as you seem to be, why are you so unwilling to accept that it's probably wrong?
The emphasis on critical was meant to suggest hesitatancy or the acknowledgment of nuance to their actions not necessarily my personal beliefs. I do however believe that NATO had a lot to do with the start of this was as I've quite recently discovered since the beginning of this thread.
As for my argumentative nature, I don't like when my words are misinterpreted and used to claim things I did not say so it made me instinctually hostile. I also have trouble just letting things rest or ignoring situations. Anyway I'm working on educating myself I just think strawmans are dumb
Critical support of genocide, just sounds like support of genocide with extra steps to me.
NATO just means the US for most of them.