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[-] Guntrigger@feddit.ch 182 points 1 year ago

Everyone here is arguing the benefits of prohibition. I'm just interested to know how much money Rishi (and/or his family members/friends/donors) have invested in vaping and nicotine alternatives.

[-] Silentiea@lemm.ee 101 points 1 year ago

It always confuses me to learn that when people want to ban smoking it somehow means ban "cigarettes" and not "nicotine"

[-] gmtom@lemmy.world 39 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Because smoking is WILDLY more harmful than vaping.

Yes vaping has SOME health risks, but it's like saying drinking tea and drinking four loko are just as bad because they both have caffeine

[-] morrowind@lemmy.ml 43 points 1 year ago

Bro what tea are you drinking that has nicotine

[-] SomeRandomWords@lemmy.blahaj.zone 29 points 1 year ago

I can only imagine they meant caffeine, another common drug that's heavily abused but a little more socially accepted

[-] Lemminary@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago
[-] ComradePorkRoll@lemmy.ml 13 points 1 year ago

How much did big coffee pay you to make this comment? I bet that link installs covfefe!

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Yes, because not all drugs are bad for you.

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[-] askdocsthrowaway96@lemm.ee 7 points 1 year ago

Nicoteane 😉

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[-] Son_of_dad@lemmy.world 16 points 1 year ago

Well what's wrong with nicotine? In itself it's not worse than booze. It's all the other crap they add that makes it so terrible

[-] JoeBigelow@lemmy.ca 45 points 1 year ago

Hi from the depths of a nicotine addiction and struggling to quit. Its a worthless chemical that gets more expensive everyday and my brain SCREAMS at me for a fix if I try to go more than even a few hours. At least heroin gets you high.

[-] HikingVet@lemmy.sdf.org 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

And even when you break free for the most part the chemical which is classified as a poison will make you crave it years later.

[-] JoeBigelow@lemmy.ca 4 points 1 year ago

Every time I smell somebody smoking I need a pouch or I'll go ask for a bum

[-] MisterFrog@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago

Stay strong on your recovery friend 💪

Thank you for your comment, this is always my biggest beef with those defending nicotine (smoking/vaping).

It's like, WHAT DO YOU EVEN GAIN FROM IT?

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[-] bizzle@midwest.social 4 points 1 year ago

I switched to CBD only vape juice and it helped!

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[-] smellythief@lemmy.world 11 points 1 year ago

not worse than booze.

is not doing your argument any favors.

[-] Goblin_Mode@ttrpg.network 11 points 1 year ago

I mean I'm no expert but I do have some knowledge on the subject.

The difference is how you injest it. Our stomachs are much more resilient than our lungs. Your stomach is, for all intents and purposes, a sac of acid that dissolves mostly anything you put in it, your lungs on the other hand literally only do 1 thing all day and it's breathe air. There are different qualities of air of course, and microparticles in it that could cause harm, but on the whole it's more or less all the same.

Its like dumping garbage into a sink vs. a paper bag. The sink will get disgusting, and you may end up with a clogged drain, messed up pipes, or worse. But at the end of the day if you just clean the mess and don't do it too often it will probably be fine. The paper bag on the other hand is gonna get Soggy, gross, and start falling apart in your hands. You can dry it out but it will never quite be the same..

[-] abraxas@sh.itjust.works 3 points 1 year ago

There are different qualities of air of course, and microparticles in it that could cause harm, but on the whole it’s more or less all the same.

Absolutely, and that's the problem. The same argument you just posed could also be used against intentionally smelling flowers, or sticking your nose over a pot of boiling broth to smell that chicken deliciousness.

We don't know that vaped nicotine is more harmful than most things we breathe. In fact, I'd say there are non-drug things people do that we already know to be worse than vaping. Ever go camping? The smoke from that fire is worse than vaping, worse than almost any substance you might want to smoke.

So the question is how bad vaping (the action, not the drug) is. Is it as bad as sniffing a rose, as bad as lighting a scented candle? As bad as incense? As bad as a campfire? If, as many suspect, it's near the beginning of that scale, then the only critique we can rightly have is towards the substance vaped. If it's near the end of the scale, we kinda need some research to support that claim.

Its like dumping garbage into a sink vs. a paper bag

As of yet, the medical and scientific community have not found solid evidence that it's "like...garbage" at all if you don't like it on fire.

Which is where things get complicated. Because it MIGHT be terrible for you. Or it might not be bad at all.

[-] Eatspancakes84@lemmy.world 6 points 1 year ago

Are you kidding? Booze is incredibly harmful!

[-] Son_of_dad@lemmy.world 6 points 1 year ago

Yup, and it's allowed and easily accessible

[-] random65837@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago

True, but people will never disconnect Nicotine from Smoking.

[-] Cryophilia@lemmy.world 14 points 1 year ago

In the US it's the opposite, which is absolutely bizarro land. Want to ban vapes but not cigarettes.

[-] Chetzemoka@startrek.website 10 points 1 year ago

Well, nicotine isn't the part of smoking that causes cancer

[-] Blum0108@lemmy.world 20 points 1 year ago

But it's the part that is addictive and keeps you smoking.

[-] dudewitbow@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 year ago

If addiction is a problem, should the general use of caffine be banned then? Thats why its kinda odd to specifically ban nicotine.

Choosing to ban specifically nicotine and not caffine is as silly as the idea that cigarettes should be legal but weed shouldnt.

[-] abraxas@sh.itjust.works 2 points 1 year ago

Probably, yes. Even the age restrictions are kinda silly.

I do think it's ok to ban sale of "prepared smokables" like cigarettes. The harm level is known to be severe. But if someone wants to buy their own tobacco+papers and roll their own cigarettes, that's on them.

Of course, I don't think it would be effective to ban cigarettes. Just ethically coherent.

[-] Plopp@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago

If it's not too harmful - what's the problem with being addicted? I'm addicted to coffee and drink at least two cups per day, as do most people around here.

[-] Goo_bubbs@lemmings.world 5 points 1 year ago

Nobody out there is just buying Nicotine gum for the flavor. The overwhelming majority are struggling with an addiction that may one day kill them.

Also, as a former smoker of over 20 years as well as a current coffee addict, I can tell you from personal experience that there is no comparison between the two. Some substances are simply more addictive than others. Nicotine is one of the worst on the planet.

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[-] Silentiea@lemm.ee 2 points 1 year ago

The full effects of vaping are not well understood, and while they're almost certainly not as bad as cigarettes, they're also almost certainly still bad for you, and they are indeed still addictive for the same reasons as cigarettes because they still use nicotine.

Further, one main reason their risks remain as poorly understood as they do is that (again, because of the same active ingredient) people who vape often also use cigarettes. The two are closely linked, I don't think my confusion should be so easily dismissed as that.

[-] Chetzemoka@startrek.website 2 points 1 year ago

Oh sorry, I was thinking nicotine supplements like gum and patches. In my mind, smoking and vaping are the same thing. "Don't inhale particulate matter of any kind" is an excellent rule of thumb for all humans in all situations

[-] Silentiea@lemm.ee 2 points 1 year ago

Exactly my point. It always throws me for a minute when I realize people are treating them so separately.

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[-] uis@lemmy.world 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Because probably it was defined as burning, not usage of nicotine

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[-] vidarh@lemmy.stad.social 2 points 1 year ago

Nicotine is one of the safest stimulants we know, up there with caffeine in terms of safety. There's little meaningful reason to ban nicotine. You're more likely to harm yourself with any number of other things we readily allow.

The addiction potential of nicotine alone is also far lower than people assume, because smoking is highly addictive both due to the rituals and the other substances involved. I tried to get used to nicotine via patches years back to use as a safe stimulant, and not only did I not get addicted, I couldn't get used to it (and I was not willing to get myself used to smoking, given the harm that involves). That's not to say you can't develop addictions to patches or vapes etc. too, but much more easily when it's as a substitution for smoking than "from scratch".

Restrictions on delivery methods that are harmful or not well enough understood, and combining nicotine with other substances that make the addiction and harm potential greater, sure.

[-] affiliate@lemmy.world 16 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Nicotine is one of the safest stimulants we know, up there with caffeine in terms of safety. There's little meaningful reason to ban nicotine.

this is from a 2015 article i found on the NIH library:

Nicotine poses several health hazards. There is an increased risk of cardiovascular, respiratory, gastrointestinal disorders. There is decreased immune response and it also poses ill impacts on the reproductive health. It affects the cell proliferation, oxidative stress, apoptosis, DNA mutation by various mechanisms which leads to cancer. It also affects the tumor proliferation and metastasis and causes resistance to chemo and radio therapeutic agents. The use of nicotine needs regulation. The sale of nicotine should be under supervision of trained medical personnel.

source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4363846/

in case you think i might be cherry picking, here’s something from johns hopkins, and here’s a source from the cdc. here’s something recent from harvard for good measure.

edit: i should be clear that the other sources don’t say exactly the same things as the NIH one, but they do talk about how nicotine itself is very addictive, and they talk about some of the harm it can cause

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[-] JWBananas@startrek.website 4 points 1 year ago

I tried to get used to nicotine via patches years back to use as a safe stimulant, and not only did I not get addicted, I couldn't get used to it

Well of course not. You weren't getting the dopamine rush of a large acute dose rushing from your lungs directly to your brain in a matter of seconds.

What the heck kind of hot take is this?

Regardless, the dangers – including ease of addiction – are well-known and are scientifically proven. Your anecdata of one does not change that.

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this post was submitted on 05 Oct 2023
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