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What if the reason Trump hasn't attacked is because Iran is supplying Russia with the drones they need in Ukraine?
Yeah but the benefit of the US and other powers blowing through all their air defense missiles in another conflict with Iran would be so massive to Putin that in my opinion that is a major reason Trump is pushing this war.
No doubt Russia will move if a regional war kicks off, maybe even China. Which is no doubt why the Russian agents are getting so much pushback against attacking Iran.
The timing of the nuclear sabre rattling from the Kremlin is suspicious too.
Total crackpot armchair hypothesis: is this what it would look like if Russia's plan was to escalate the war against Ukraine and Europe, and to do it while the United States is too occupied with other problems?
Russia's original plan was to take Kyiv in a week. Everything since then has seemed more like reaction than anything else, and I don't see how they could have controlled events to make this happen when they can't even control their own supply chain adequately.
Would they take advantage of a distraction, though? Sure.
I don't think Russia can meaningfully escalate without just resorting to nuclear bombs, but I think that would be a red line for China if it was just done arbitrarily as an escalation.
In every other respect Russia is near complete exhaustion militarily and any additional actions they take have to be done with elements triaged from other military efforts at the front.. and as we are seeing Ukraine does not simply let Russia quietly remove intensity from its offensive without immediately punishing them in devastating localized counterattacks.
What Russia is doing here is trying to project limitless strength at the point they are at near exhaustion, they can't really meaningfully tip the scales either way with Iran in my opinion, at least not to the degree the world seems to by default assume they can because they are a "military superpower". Russia needs hostilities to pause in the Ukraine war soon or the problems at the frontline for them will begin to accelerate non-linearly. They also need to be given all of the defensive lines that Ukraine built in a shitty diplomatic deal because they don't even remotely have the strength and vigor to power through them in the years long battle it would take to do so.
The CIA has consistently reported that not only do Russian strategists and leaders not have the intention to invade more of Europe, they also do not have the capability and capacity to do so.
So yes, it's a crackpot hypothesis because it doesn't match reality as we know it.
TBF you don't need to be the CIA to observe that part.
Yes. Which is why the discourse is so obviously manufactured I can't believe any of you don't see it.
The enemy is both weak and strong. Russia is both losing terrible for 4 years straight and also we need another $100B worth of the most powerful weapons in the world. Russia is both sending soldiers out to the fields without shoes or guns and also if we don't send more support Ukraine will lose. Russia is both almost completely out of soldiers and tanks and also all they will invade all of Europe if Ukraine falls.
It's so obvious. It's been obvious for years. The same people saying it's obvious that Russia is in an abject state are the same ones saying that unless we send weapons, or even troops, then Europe will be overrun by Russian hordes.
It's important that we see this discourse for what it is - pure manipulation of the masses. It has no basis in reality. Most of the discourse on the conflict has no basis in reality. The ruling class of the Western empire has one objective - maintain power over the world, including and most importantly, their domestic working class.
Hanlon's razor, though. There's always a tendency to think this way about enemies. The trick is not letting it become official doctrine, if you want to be the good guy and want to win.
And it's not FWIW. There's clickbait about imminent doom and shitposters talking about how Russians are just sunflower holders, but actual officers, agencies and analysts paint a much more nuanced picture.
Social credit +20
Believabilty -1,000
https://quincyinst.org/research/right-sizing-the-russian-threat-to-europe/
That's an argument, not proof.
Iran wouldn't blow through a serious fraction of US air defense. The main threats from Iran would be torpedo's and water based mines from hidden/small launch sites. Their drone attacks would probably land a couple hits early on, due to sheer volume, but they wouldn't get to launch waves like Russia is able to in Ukraine. There wouldn't be enough launch sites remaining after the first two weeks.
The bigger issues would be what other countries do in reaction. China and Russia at the top of that list.
Iran already did in the 12 day war with Israel? What? Are you kidding? Air defense missile production capacity in the west was shown to be completely incapable of sustaining a barrage of Iranian missiles and it has been a discussion since about how to address that. The air defenses work, clearly, but they run out quick.
In order to continue challenging air defenses, there has to be someplace left to launch an air attack from. And since Iran has nothing to stop US air attacks, that becomes an issue long before US air defense runs out.
Where is your evidence that will happen? Especially in the geography in which this conflict will occur?
I think the precise opposite has been demonstrated.
The entire concept of extremely long range missile trucks is the ability to fully exploit interior expanses as launch points for offensive strikes.
Who cares if you learn the location of a missile launch if the vehicle is already moving and chose an irrelevant place in the near backline to fire from?
The entire concept of long range missile launch from mobile trucks like this is the idea of mobility as an fully organic individualized capability.... a problem air power is least equipped to neutralize since the targets are maximally decentralized in a spatial sense and in motion.
The US is showing up with 4 times as many cruise missiles as Iran has total launch systems, on day one. The US has a working supply chain to bring more. Iran won't have a supply chain from anywhere, and construction won't be an option without materials, which would also be targeted.
Iran has no chance of standing up to the US military, that's never really been a question. The only thing they can, and probably will do, is cause some losses to the Navy and any land troops. Unlike Iraq or Afghanistan, the US will take serious casualties if it goes into Iran. That won't be enough to stop the invasion, or really even slow it down. Internal politics would be a far more likely reason to stop any open invasion.
No, if Iran does a serious amount of damage to the US it is going to have MASSIVE blowback in the US. It might not immediately translate into the US backing off but the idea that Trump will pay no political cost in real terms if Iran does serious damage to the US military I just don't think holds up.
Long term I think it will just make the rightwing even more war obsessed but that is independent of a direct tactical transaction going on here in political power. If Iran hits the US hard during the attack Trump will look worse and it will cost him and his allies materially.
In the US War-Drug Cycle we are at the Brenschlaus, the point where fascists take over the war machine and the warhawks are temporarily all onboard just before the first massive catastrophe that utterly destroys the coalition's image of power.
The US is massively overextended in the region. And has limited platforms to deploy power from. Just as you say the US would first target Iranian launch capacity, Iran would first target US regional platforms, including the incredibly vulnerable carriers. Iran already demonstrated it can bypass missile defenses. The Houthis already demonstrated that they can threaten naval assets. Iran will target airfields and carriers first and those US bombers are going to have a hard time finding a place they can land.
LoL. Can you all not see how obvious it is that your analysis is fundamentally flawed? You both think Trump is doing Russia's bidding and come to exact opposite conclusions that are both totally backed by your assumptions.
I mean, I couldn't have asked for a better 2-comment encapsulation of the problem with this analysis.
I don't feel gotcha'd here at all, the way I see it the most important, vital aide that can be given to Ukraine right now are missile interceptors/air defense, and it is politically awkward and costly for Trump to completely gum the works up and give nothing to Ukraine, same story repeated in other European nations harboring radical rightwing elements, so thus an easy solution for shitty people like Trump is to bomb Iran, get Iran to attack Israel and then print money for military industrial companies by utterly depleting air defense stocks for years among NATO powers while panicking about it.
Then... there is no political cost to withholding crucial air defense missiles to Ukraine because there aren't any and the question of helping Ukraine can be turned against the need to protect the home country blah blah blah.
The logic is pretty straightforward in my mind? All that matters is that you assume Putin is Trump's daddy, and I think we can all agree on that right?
US missile companies sure as hell aren't going to lobby against this sequence of events either...
But this analysis requires entirely cutting out all context that might complicate your analysis.
For instance, Trump was the first US president to authorize weapons transfers to Ukraine.
Second, Iran is the last country on the list of 7 countries the US intended to invade as revealed by General Wesley Clark. That list of 7 countries was formulated under the GWBush administration, and the 7 countries that were on that list were:
So the conflict with Iran is at least 20+ years in the making and the plan has been followed not just by GW and Trump but also Obama/Clinton. The Biden administration continued the inter-administration policies in Syria, specifically the covert cultivation of the ISIS terrorist who eventually became the leader of Syria.
History didn't start when Trump took office. The US has vested interests in the region and Trump is presiding over the administration of those interests. Just like Venezuela, the showboating may be influenced by Trump, but the development of the aggression against Venezuela started in 1999 and continued through every administration since then, Republic and Democrat.
The analysis that everything bad Trump does is because he's really an extension of Russia is very clear example of a retreat to innocence. These are US decisions that have decades of history behind them, not idiosyncratic acts of a single president who is actually not part of US interests but actually is part of our enemy's interests.
It's such a reductive way of ignoring all of the years of effort that has gone in to US regime change planning and preparation and leaves us with the totally incorrect understanding that if only we elected someone else that none of this would be happening. It's entirely possible that it wouldn't be happening in precisely this way, with the particular PR, rhetoric, and media spin. But these operations span administrations and the president is operating, as all presidents generally do, on the basis of recommendations from the JCOS.
Yeah, you are definitely projecting it on to me that I am someone that would disagree with that, the US needing to bomb Iran is one of the more rabid devotions of US foreign policy over many decades and administrations.
That doesn't mean Putin isn't Trump's daddy?
Stop trying to lecture me about a belief I don't hold, I don't at all think the fucked up relationship the US has towards Iran started with Trump or is the result of some Russian conspiracy.
Nope, it is just there are two shit sandwhiches here aligning in the sky above us in a total eclipse of rationality.
So if you understand the role the conflict plays in the continuity of US policy, attempting to analyze whether it will or won't happen on the basis of Trump being owned by Putin is mostly useless. If the national security apparatus is still functioning enough to maintain this level of continuity, then how did it allow for a known adversary to take the presidency. If a known adversary took the presidency, why are his actions still continuous with the last several decades of foreign policy?
Who said the ruling class of the US are really the enemies of Russia? Like kind of, but in reality it is more about money and making deals than anything else so yeah... om my answer to the above quote is very easily, all it took was buckets of incompetence, collusion and people saying "not my problem!".
So then are you saying Trump is a puppet of Russia or are you saying that the ruling class of the USA is and has been collaborating with Russia for some time, in which case, Trump is not a puppet but rather just another bog standard member of the ruling class?
Both to a degree.
What you are asking is how could the current situation be probable given my estimation of the motivations behind the important actors involved, relying on some kind of Newtonian perfect estimation of how one thing will bounce off another and I am saying these people are unbelievably incompetent, they absolutely would and did elect a complete traitor to have power over them. They make existentially conflicting strategic choices all of the damn time. You can't evaluate the shitshow that is US power politics without adding in a massive dose of idiot juice, otherwise it will endlessly confound you that sometimes the decisions that are made don't even seem to benefit the people who are in power making them.
Putin is Trump's daddy, that doesn't mean I am attributing the follies of US foreign policy all to some elaborate Russian conspiracy, I am just stating the obvious, Putin is Trump's daddy, it is clear from his behavior.
Which is it? Your opinion is that Trump is pushing this war to deliberately weaken the US military establishment so that Russia can take military advantage of the situation because Trump personally has a submissive relationship with Putin personally? Or you don't attribute the foibles of US foreign policy to some elaborate Russian conspiracy?
From the outside, your words look entirely contradictory
Trump is a senile lunatic, of course the nonsense spewing out of his brain is contradictory. Nothing he is doing makes any rational sense on any level. People are just trying to play idiot-whisperer to sus out what random two malfunctioning brain cells are going to form his next policy choice (foreign or domestic). Of course what they're saying is contradictory, the random-bad idea generator running the country is a contradiction factory.
Again. Trump is not operating with a blank canvas. The JCOS present him with specific options after heavy bureaucratic deliberations and he is choosing between those options.
The country, including the military, is still a bureaucracy. Electing a president to preside over that bureaucracy, while certainly subject to individual differences in leaders, is predominantly driven by that bureaucracy and not by the individual in the oval office
Both!!! The subject we are speaking of is inherently contradictory.
Why are we talking about Putin. There's a gap in the Epstein Files missing around the 9/11 Twin Tower incident. It's Israel. It's Bibi. Netanyahu is Trumps daddy.
You call it contradictory. I call it over determination. Everything the US government is doing it would do even if Trump wasn't acting at the direction of Putin. We've seen proxy wars before. We've seen how the US manages them. Ukraine is entirely explainable through the calculus of historical US proxy wars, and particularly proxy wars with Russia/USSR. The conflict with Iran is explain able without an appeal to Russian conspiracy.
This is over determination at it's most essential. It becomes contradictory and irrational when you add in the puppet conspiracy. Without that conspiracy, it's all explainable with what we know about the US bureaucracy, military strategy, and geopolitical conditions.
Did you miss the part about US helping Putin into power and keeping him there!?
I think with so many puzzle pieces missing you may just be grasping at straws.
I do agree with your general premise though.
The US also helped put Saddam Hussein in power and look what they did? This is just more confirmation bias and selective reading of history. Yes, GWB said he looked into the eyes of Putin and saw in his soul that he was a good man. But Cheney is an anti-Trumper. So which is it? Trump is a personal puppet of Putin? The entire Republican party is individually or collectively controlled by Putin? Or the US (and its European a forebears) have always seen Russia as a prize to be conquered and ending communism was not enough for the US to change positions on that?
If Russia is a long standing enemy, everything the US is doing is consistent with that thesis without needing to also establish that some significant portion of effective leadership is actually working for Putin. The waffling with the Ukrainian weapon support is classic North Atlantic proxy war behavior and does not require an entire 5th Column of Russian actors to explain.
Yeah, I see the problem. You are failing to separate propaganda from facts, but maybe you are just commenting that no one else can seem to do this either. If it is the later I agree. If it is the former you need to stop taking anything at face value.
Russia is not an enemy, nor is China. These military conflicts are just a way for the Industrial Military Complexes of the world to use up expiring ordinance and have a reason to make more.
That is my two cents at least. Cheers!
You need to read history. Russia has been a target of Europe for a very long time. They want the natural resources under their control. Napoleon invaded Russia in an attempt to dominate it and control who it could trade with. The US and the Allies invaded Russia in 1918 to stop the communists from taking over. Hitler invaded Russia intending to enslave everyone and control all their resources. And Western Europe was pretty bullish on that idea. Many American business leaders supported Hitler, as did many English political leaders and business leaders.
When Russia was dismantled, Bill Clinton held NATO meetings with Yeltsin and Yeltsin made it clear that, following years of rapprochement with the USA, Russia would be a good capitalist ally. Clinton instead chose to expand NATO, a transnational nuclear military with no democratic accountability that was designed specifically to counter Russian military capabilities and staffed by Nazi officers specifically because they were trained on anti-Russian strategies and tactics. That choice demonstrated a US and European consensus to continue having a violently oppositional posture towards Russia and indeed enhance that posture over time. Putin continued to enrich Yeltsin's position of economic and military cooperation with the West, thinking that the expansion of NATO was just precautionary and eventually the West would accept Russia into the club. But after multiple failures of repeated attempts to integrate their Russian security framework with the West's, it became abundantly clear that the West would never accept anything less than total Russian subjugation.
Oh I missed the .ml my apologies.
Yes, it was the former. There is so much propaganda here I don't even know where to begin.
Go for it. Pick a single thing that you think is false or spun in a way that leads to incorrect conclusions.
Sure, Billy the molestor Clinton championed Eastern block nations joining Nato, but it wasn't ever his decision as it required buy in from Eastern block countries to agree to as well as Nato members (a real sore spot for nationalist Russian assholes)
The expansion of NATO is the propaganda (along with stopping "nazification") that Putin the mass murderer used to justify invading Ukraine costing well over a million casualties now. This is particularly distasteful because of how close Ukraine was with Russia. They were brothers and sisters forced to kill each other by murderous fascist pigs.
That is the problem with .ml squatters, they will tell you that China's fascism tastes better than US fascism with a straight face. It is okay when their team kills millions of people. It makes me sick.
Also, the US and Russia ended up being great trading partners increasing trade dramatically every year until 2008. Propaganda always has a little truth sprinkled in and a lot of big lies.
While it is true that countries have to elect to join NATO, it's obvious how that has been manipulated. NATO attacked Yugoslavia, claiming it was for humanitarian reasons, then dropped depleted uranium bombs on the country. Meanwhile, NATO's decades-long program of cultivating neo-nazi and fascist militias became a good starting point for manipulating the politics of these countries. But then of course the US spent hundreds of millions of dollars throughout the region further manipulating the politics of the region.
It's true that countries elect to be part of NATO, but that's the grain of truth in the pro-Western propaganda.
The expansion of NATO into Ukraine is why the Russians took Crimea. The invasion of the Donbas was caused by some intelligence analysis that we don't have access to. In 2013, a few months before Euromaidan, NATO and Ukraine did their first ever fully join exercise. Between 2014 and 2022, NATO and Ukraine ran simulated invasions of Russian territory together. The idea that NATO poses no threat to anyone is propaganda. NATO has violated it's doctrine of defense-only multiple times at the behest of the US in Libya and Afghanistan, two countries completely out of the scope of NATOs remit and purely offensive campaigns run by the US.
NATO is a transnational nuclear military with supply chain and logistics across all of Europe, led by the USA, the country with the longest track record of consistent offensive wars, war crimes, crimes against humanity, and open support for Nazis and neo-nazis. The same US that saved 10k Nazis from justice through collaboration with the Vatican and moved them all over the Western hemisphere, protecting them, giving them jobs, integrating them into politics and the military. The same US that selected Nazi officers right after WW2 to staff NATO and rebuilt West Germany and watched and even supported former Nazi politicians in running for and attaining office.
Yugoslavia was engaging in ethnic cleansing having killed over ten thousand civilians which lead to the displacement of almost a million people. That is the definition of a fucking genocide son.
Where in the fuck you think this was okay and didn't need an intervention I am not sure. The NATO bombing was criticized for killing a lot of civilians and destroying infrastructure. Was it the right call? I guess we will never know for sure.
What we do know is Yugoslavia was murdering far more civilians than NATO did. The intervention also lead to a peace agreement.
Ukraine HAS NOT JOINED NATO. Why spread lies to justify murder. It really makes you look like a piece of shit.
NATO has never invaded another country in a war of conquest, guess who has!? Fucking Russia.
If Russia put down it arms today and dismantled its military you think NATO would invade it!? That they would violate their commitments just like Russia ALREADY DID WITH UKRAINE.
Is NATO representative of the fascist fucks in the US? Certainly. We all known the US is responsible for the most deaths in human history.
That has nothing to do with the death and destruction Russia has brought on Ukraine in what can only be described as a war crime of unbelievable magnitude. They have forced their countrymen to die for literally nothing. Killing their closest ally in a sick game of propaganda.
And here you are parroting their lies. Pretty pathetic.
What lies? You admit yourself that NATO is an extension of the most murderous fascist regime in the world. It's bombing of Yugoslavia was a symbolic break from its doctrine of exclusive defense. NATO was not chartered to intervene in civil wars, it was chartered for collective defense. It's intervention in Yugoslavia was literally illegal under international law. But of course you ignored the fact that it was also used Libya and Afghanistan, again at the behest of the USA.
NATO is a threat to ANY enemy of the US and the evidence is the undeniable pile of bodies.
So why, when you can literally look up every single joint NATO/Ukraine exercise, do you think it's spreading Russian lies to say that NATO was considered a security threat? Are you saying Russia can never consider NATO to be a security threat? That it's impossible for them to ever make that determination?
Here's Operation Ocean Shield. https://www.nato.int/en/news-and-events/articles/news/2013/10/30/nato-and-ukraine-navy-together-in-the-fight-against-piracy
You can also look up Steadfast Defender 21, the Anakonda exercises, and others. Many involved Ukrainian troops being trained and establishing interop with NATO weapons systems and involved sieging or "denying" Kaliningrad. You can argue that these are "defensive" sieges and "defensive" denials and "defensive" rapid deployment of US and Canadian troops and "defensive" interop programs to enable intermediate range missile systems in Ukrainian operations. But at a certain point - probably the point where NATO just ignores its charter and attacks whoever the US says to - it becomes foolish to just believe the fascists are peacefully expanding their transnational nuclear military originally staffed by literal Nazis and run entirely as a lapdog of the fascist US, don't you think?
If Russia put its arms down today, NATO would continue to establish its denial capabilities and expand them to create conditions where Russia would not be able to defend itself from any aggression. That's the security issue. You can't just play a chess game and not move any pieces while your opponent moves theirs. Moving the pawn out? Not offensive. Moving the bishop out? Not offensive. No pieces were taken. Moving the queen out? Not offensive. You have nothing to worry about, right?
Russia is an actual country with an actual military and an actual national security apparatus that assessed the situation as too dangerous to not act. That's the fundamental. We can argue all day long about their assessment and get nowhere because a) we don't have access to it and b) you are so brainwashed by Western propaganda that you think NATO is just a peaceful passive entity for defense in case those hordes decide to attack. But we don't have to argue that. We just have to argue about whether or not you believe Russia is capable of having a national security threat that it can respond to. It seems like you don't think so.
The only reason for Russia to be a threat to NATO and the rest of the world is it own actions. Please lecture me on the evil of the US while Russia has just sacrificed 200k of its innocent civilians in a war of aggression with its closest ally based on lies you believe.
For once in history it isn't the US and that is all you can think about. I hate fascists. The entire world is fascist including your stupid pet countries. I will tell you the difference between these fascist cunts. The US only lost 7,000k soldiers in the entire time in the middle east from 2001-2021. The truth about Russia is its just a shittier version of fascism which somehow cares even less about their people.
Please tell me more about how I believe western propaganda and wonder why I think you are acting like a dumb cunt.
I really don't understand why this is so difficult for you. The US killed over half a million children in Iraq and Madeline Albright went on national TV and said she'd do it again because it was worth it. Hillary Clinton said "We came! We saw! He died!" Laughing about the sodomization of Gaddafi with a bayonet in a war that the US literally created by funnelling weapons, money, and intelligence to partisans in Libya when it was the most prosperous country in the continent and had the highest living standards for its people. NATO was involved in that war of aggression that was helmed by the US.
The entire world saw all of that happen and understood what it meant - except Americans. Americans looked at Libya and said "Gaddafi was a bad man who hated his people and made their lives miserable and then when the people rose up he tried to violently repress him so we had to go in there and protect them!" The rest of the world saw that and went "Holy shit the US is just willing to openly start civil wars, destroy entire countries, turn them into open air slave markets, gloat about it on the international stage, and not a single institution is going to challenge their narrative let alone stop them"
So when NATO and the US show up on Ukraine and start joint military exercises, and then a right wing US friendly movement takes over in a "popular uprising", complete with neo-Nazis, open murder of civilians by neo-Nazis, and US politicians and military personnel on the ground, it's time to take notice.
When you recognize that the Nazi blitzkrieg and Napoleon's invasion both leveraged the very vulnerable parts of the Russian border, which just so happen to overlap with the Ukraine border, you don't wait to see if the EuroFascists are going to try to invade your country and kill tens of millions of your people.
Russia made a security-based decision. Was it the right decision? We don't know. We can't know. But to argue that Russia had absolutely zero possible security threats is essentially saying that the only thing Russia is ever allowed to defend itself against is a direct strike.
You don't believe that for anyone else in the world, except maybe China. You would certainly have a problem with Russian troops in Venezuela, or Chinese troops on Canada, or a collation of Russian, Chinese, and North Korean troops amassing in Cuba. And if the US attacked them because they were clearly amassing in a threatening way, you wouldn't say the US had zero national security concerns.
But because you have been raised to believe that Russia can have zero legitimate interests in the world, that it is literally impossible for it to act in self defense unless directly attacked, you watch as the US builds base after base, 600+ in countries all over the world, and think this is fine.
By the way, this whole concept of voluntarily accepting a US or NATO base on your sovereign territory, literally giving up sovereignty over some of your land and putting your country into a position to basically be pre-invaded should you ever come to blows with the US - we've seen this before. It's called appeasement. When the Third Reich first start expanding, it didn't do it by launching wars, it did it through politics. The West appeased Germany, and Germany expanded.
You recognize the US is a violent fascist country. You recognize that appeasement of the Third Reich was a terrible policy. But you just cannot put two and two together and for whatever reason you believe that allowing the US and NATO to expand "voluntarily" is not appeasement and that Russia finally fighting back to stop the slow march and assert its national security interests makes Russia not only evil but WORSE because they actually sacrifice their people for this mission.
I mean, it defies reason. I really struggle to understand how you don't feel the emotion driving your argument away from reason and towards contradiction.
The US killed more people than any other nation ever. I already said that. Are you dense? It has nothing to do with what we are talking about.
Joint military excercise is not joining shit. Poor Putin, your neighbors are practicing war what to do... Invade and murder you fellow countrymen! God you are stupid murder apologist.
What the fuck do the Nazi have to do with this other than retarded propaganda. Russia murdered how many of its own citizens throughout history. Sixty million in just the last hundred years!? You want me to be sympathetic to people who murder their own citizens for fun and guess what. They are still doing it.
Garbage people. Glad I don't carry water for for them like you do.
Joint military exercises are WORSE than joining shit. Stop being such an idealist. Signing a piece of paper is meaningless. Actually arming, practicing, and integrating real military battalions and weapons systems is far far worse than being officially recognized. The problem has nothing to do with Ukraine being covered by article 5 and everything to do with the Ukrainian state integrating its military posture with the US via NATO and deploying US weapon systems.
Listen to yourself for just one second. Please. You are literally saying that the people who have killed more people than anyone else are now working with your neighbor and practicing war, specifically war against you, using the same legal framework they used to eventually invade several other countries. And they're doing it on the border with your country that Russia was invaded over twice in invasions that cost them massive military and civilian losses. And you are saying that Russia is a cry baby? That I'm a murder apologist for saying that Russia has legitimate security concerns?
Like, really reread just the first part of what you wrote.
What do the Nazis have to do with this? We're establishing that the threat to Russia is real.
There it is. Your entire argument rests on morality, idealism, vibes, and campism. You think Russia has no legitimate security interests because they are "bad" and you think that acknowledging the US is also "bad" absolves you of having to actually think about anything further. Russia is "bad" and therefore any action they take other than surrender is "bad". The US is "bad" and you don't "support" them but if they do something to Russia you're not going to worry because Russia is "bad".
There's an old joke where a KGB agent and a CIA agent meet for a friendly drink on neutral territory. The American says to the Soviet:
To which the Soviet replies:
To which the American replies:
To which the Soviet replies:
You think that because I don't argue from the position of "Russia bad" that I'm the one infected by propaganda, never stopping to analyze your own self-contradictory positions, your emotional reactions signalling your cognitive dissonance, and your lack of shame in founding your entire argument on your belief that they are garbage people and that you have no sympathy for them.
Looks like it was a good thing for Ukraine to practice with the NATO fascists after all. Russia proved it is the aggressor and you can't accept it because you like the nasty warm piss filled Kool Aid Putin prepared for you. As the pedo rapist Trump would say, "That is very sad."
Speaking of Trump, can you believe Russia sponsored that piece of shit? The whole world is worse off because Russia is a kleptocracy hell bent on making money off the suffering of humans.
I am glad you don't claim morality as it is very clear you can't pick between the lesser of evils in a given situation. That is modern life, it sucks. Get used to it.
Russia could give two shits about its people. The US might be the most murderous, but no one competes with Russia sacrificing its own people in war and in peacetime. Once again, garbage people in the government.
I don't think you are infected with propaganda, I know you are. Not even questioning that for a second bringing up every bullshit Russian talking point like it is the gospel of Jesus Fucking Christ.
I love the Russian people, they deserve far better than they get, but you wouldn't know it after talking to bozos like you. No country on Earth is worthy of humanity. Certainly not the US, China, or Russia. Three fascist nations that are all guilty as charged.
The problem with you is you are one not fucking bit objective. You have picked your stupid team. Now go lie in the flea ridden bed you have chosen.
Yeah. Not a shred of rational thought left in you. Pure righteousness. I'm glad we had this conversation so that other people could see it. You're a lost cause.
Sure, go take your Russian propaganda and stick it all the way up your backside you fascist apologist.