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[–] Ziggurat@jlai.lu 48 points 1 day ago (5 children)

I know enough physics to say no Even inter-Stellar is out of our reach (without generation ship).

We have zero reason to believe in an effective way to build wormhole, jump gates or anything similar. Even high energy cosmic rays have a limited range (due to collision with photons) which is a strong clue that there is no shortcut in space

[–] wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz 2 points 13 hours ago* (last edited 13 hours ago)

Why do you say wormholes are impossible? We don't need a reason to believe it, because what we do or don't believe doesn't change whether or not something is possible.

Humans didn't have a reason to believe in electricity until they did. Humans didn't have a reason to believe in computers until they did. Humans didn't have a reason to believe in gravity, nuclear energy, relativity, or quantum mechanics until they did. Same deal for germs, internet, cell phones, the list goes on.

Point is, until someone solves Unified Field Theory and unless it definitively proves that wormholes, alternate dimensions, and parallel universes are fundamentally impossible, we can't claim to know what isn't possible a hundred or a thousand years from now.

We might not have a particular reason to believe, but we don't have any reason to disbelieve, either.

[–] AngryCommieKender@lemmy.world 2 points 19 hours ago* (last edited 18 hours ago) (1 children)

Strap a solar thruster to the sun, and the Earth and Venus can be used as generational ships. The rest of the solar system will follow the sun. The starlifting array needed to power the thruster will keep the sun "young." There's more than enough Hydrogen and Helium to dump in as fuel.

Venus is a fixer upper, but it just needs several oceans worth of water ice, and some cyanobactera flung at it to cool it down. Maybe we can look into diverting some comets into Venus, I dunno.

[–] wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz 2 points 13 hours ago (1 children)

Isn't Venus's atmosphere dense? If so, you could just float a Bespin-like Cloud City on a convenient layer of the atmosphere to avoid the boiling temperatures below and the crushing weight of the air...

[–] AngryCommieKender@lemmy.world 1 points 9 hours ago

You could, or you can add water and cyanobactera. Venus's atmosphere is pretty close to what ours was minus the water and cyanobactera when the planet mostly coole d off after the collision with Theia.

[–] cronenthal@discuss.tchncs.de 24 points 1 day ago (1 children)
[–] Canconda@lemmy.ca 5 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (2 children)

I think the closest we will come is detecting radio signals from another species. But like obviously 2 way communication would be almost impossible due to sheer distance.

[–] Zwuzelmaus@feddit.org 3 points 1 day ago

the closest we will come is detecting radio signals

But we are talking about intergalactic here.

Radio is only lightspeed, and that is much too slow to cover such distances.

[–] UnspecificGravity@piefed.social 3 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Sadly the universe is filled with enough random radio radiation that its unlikely any coherent signal is going to travel more than a few light years. With our current technology there could be an identical version of earth around the nearest star and we probably couldn't detect it.

[–] Canconda@lemmy.ca 5 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

The signal isn't destroyed though. So one could argue that isolating it in the noise is doable with enough math.

Obviously the real limit is still distance since we'd need a radio dish like the size of earths orbit or something to pick up a signal weakened from many lightyears away.

[–] Hadriscus@jlai.lu 3 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Probably with virtual telescopes, smaller receivers arrayed throughout the entire solar system, like EHT but biiiiiiiigger

[–] AngryCommieKender@lemmy.world 2 points 18 hours ago (1 children)

Of course, astronomers find the Oort cloud and want to turn it into a telescope! Figures.

[–] Hadriscus@jlai.lu 4 points 18 hours ago (1 children)

oooh, such a cool idea. I imagined the array in orbit around other planets' Lagrange points but scattering them in the Oort cloud is way excitinger

[–] AngryCommieKender@lemmy.world 1 points 18 hours ago (1 children)
[–] Hadriscus@jlai.lu 2 points 17 hours ago (1 children)

Do you mean that would make a big eye ?

[–] AngryCommieKender@lemmy.world 2 points 9 hours ago

Yes it's a Sauron joke

[–] mech@feddit.org 8 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (2 children)

Fuck it, let's assume we can build jump gates.
Let's say they're just big enough to send a tiny unmanned drone through.
I hop into my space ship and accelerate with a conventional engine to 86% of light speed.
No violation of physics needed, just shitloads of energy.
I fly to another star, which takes 10 years from earth's point of view.
Due to time dilation at 86% light speed, time in my space ship passes half as fast as on earth.
If someone on earth had a strong enough telescope, they could look at a clock on my ship and see that it ticks half as fast as the clocks on earth.
But in my frame of reference, earth moves away from me at 86% light speed.
So if I look at earth through a telescope, I see that the clocks on earth tick half as fast as mine.
There isn't a universal time. Time is always relative to speed and this is no problem when the reference frames are separated.

I arrive at the star, after 5 years have passed on earth.
I activate a jump gate and send the drone through with a message. It arrives on earth instantly, 5 years after I left.
But from their reference frame, they could see my clock ticking only half as fast as theirs.
After earth's 5 years, only 2.5 years have passed for the space ship they see.
They activate their jump gate and send the drone back with a reply.
It arrives instantly at the star, 7.5 years before my space ship gets there.

This is why FTL travel isn't and will never be possible. Even with tricks like jump gates or wormholes, it creates time paradoxes.

[–] roscoe@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 points 20 hours ago* (last edited 19 hours ago)

That's not how it works. You're correct when you say that from your point of view it's Earth's clock going half speed and from Earth's point of view it's your clock going half speed while you're traveling away from Earth (or Earth is traveling away from you, both are equally valid), but that's only true as long as the distance between you and Earth continues to increase at 86% of the speed of light. As you decelerate at your destination your reference frame continuously changes until you're back in the same frame as Earth (or nearly so, we can assume the two stars aren't exactly maintaining their relative positions). While you're decelerating, from your perspective Earth's clock speeds up and goes faster than yours, how much is determined by your rate of change in relative velocity. Earth's reference frame isn't changing (ignoring movement around the sun, galactic center, the great attractor, etc.), so the Earth's perspective on your clock doesn't change, the Earth sees your clock gradually speed up as you "slow down" until it's going the same rate, but never faster. So once you're back in the Earth's reference frame both you and the Earth will agree that your clock advanced 5 years while Earth's clock (and your destination's clock, adjusted for any relative movement between it and Earth) advanced 10 years. This assumes a constant 86% light speed and ignores the time accelerating at departure and arrival so let's assume very fast acceleration so it doesn't change more than a couple days.

Edit: this is all completely ignoring gravity based time dilation from the spaceship climbing out of Sol's well and going down the destination's well and only considers velocity based time dilation. It would be more correct if you only considered two spaceships in a void where one accelerates to relativistic speeds and then accelerates back into the reference frame of the other.

[–] clean_anion@programming.dev 4 points 1 day ago

Assuming a mechanism exists that changes the universe from being singly connected to multiply connected (i.e., wormholes exist), it is possible to have wormholes permitting faster-than-light travel without time paradoxes, though some additional restrictions may apply.

We have already shown that wormholes connect across both space and time, so that a trip between star systems could take you hundreds of years into the future, and the return trip takes you hundreds of years back in time. And this is even before we throw in how time slips between planets when considering relativistic time dilation due to different speeds and gravitational potentials.

Fortunately, all the weirdness of different time rates and going backward and forward in time can be ignored by the average person. This is because you never need to go from one world to another, or back, across the vast gulfs of interstellar space. You just take the wormhole between them. All you ever need to worry about is the coordinate frame that goes across the wormhole. When considering this reference frame, you're not hopping all over the place in time. If it takes ten minutes to cross the wormhole between the two planets, when you get to your destination world the clocks will read ten minutes later than they did when you left your departure world. By coordinating their time-keeping across the wormhole network, all of the worlds of the network can agree on a common time to coordinate their activities. This is all travelers ever need to worry about, and they can then ignore all the relativistic weirdness. Your network engineers will still need to keep track of relative time drift and how close a given configuration is getting to a time loop. But unless your protagonist is a network engineer, they can just ignore all that stuff. And, as an author, so can you! Assume your engineers are competent, you have good regulatory bodies and standards institutions, and don't worry about any of this "time travel" that doesn't actually let you cause paradoxes.

source: Galactic Library

[–] balderdash9@lemmy.zip 9 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (5 children)

But doesn't the generation ship / cryogenic technology / nuclear technology make intergalactic travel possible (albeit very slow)?

[–] Hawke@lemmy.world 12 points 1 day ago

It makes interstellar travel plausible but not intergalactic.

[–] Canconda@lemmy.ca 11 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

In theory yes... but the oldest frozen specimen of humans we've found is only a few thousand years old. We don't even know if long term cryogenic reanimation is possible.

Assuming the ship travels at 10x our current capabilities we're still looking at ~8,000 years to reach our closest stellar neighbour at only 5 lightyears away.

[–] communist@lemmy.frozeninferno.xyz 10 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Then don't do it that way, put a human consciousness into a machine and wait. They said ever, we can get as sci-fi as we want here

[–] Canconda@lemmy.ca 3 points 1 day ago (2 children)

We'll still run into the same assumption/problem; shelf life.

Consider how memories work. Every time you remember something, your brain alters that memory slightly. Even looking at how the brain parses the data through several cortex (visual etc) implies that consciousness is potentially inseparable from the components of the brain. In this video about Cockatoo intelligence they speculate that birds brain anatomy causes them to think in ways that seem limited to us.

Basically we don't even know if its possible to preserve human consciousness for that long. Similar to cryogenics we have to question if reanimation is even fundamentally possible after centuries.

[–] AngryCommieKender@lemmy.world 3 points 18 hours ago

Then take the solar system with us. Strap a solar thruster to the sun, and off EVERYTHING goes. It's a byproduct of figuring out starlifting, and that buys us all the time in the universe, at least till we run out of Hydrogen and Helium to shove into the sun as fuel, but there's literally entire solar systems worth of that stuff hanging around in deep space. Like 72 solar masses per cubic light year of "empty" space.

It's a simulation of a human consciousness, it can be paused and restarted when certain conditions are met.

[–] bluGill@fedia.io 4 points 1 day ago

Sort of - but there is no reason to think we will ever be able to make something that won't break. Even intersellar is questionable just because the odds of the ship breaking in the time needed are too high.

[–] Ziggurat@jlai.lu 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

The very slow is the issue. Assuming we can reach 10-20% of c, we can reach a couple of nearby stars in 200 years (Wikipedia gives me 50 stars with 30 ly).

200 years is roughly the time from the Napoleonic era from today (Taking an Euro reference). Do you remember what your ancestor were doing during Napoleon Russian campaign or when US purchased Louisiana?

Society changed massively since Napoleon. Over 200 years the society culture of a generation ship would also drastically diverge from ours. Moreover, I can't think of many piece of technology which can keep working for 200 years without a few massive overall.

[–] AngryCommieKender@lemmy.world 3 points 18 hours ago* (last edited 18 hours ago)

Then just acceplerate the sun. If we can figure out starlifting, we have to do something with the excess gas and heat. Use that to make a solar thruster. Everything in the solar system will follow the sun, so now we have 1.8 generational ships called The Earth, and Venus.

This would also give us some protection against relativistic weapons, since we could make minor course corrections and still travel in the overall same direction.

You are talking about a trip that would last longer than human civilization has existed.