this post was submitted on 03 Jan 2026
58 points (96.8% liked)
askchapo
23205 readers
109 users here now
Ask Hexbear is the place to ask and answer ~~thought-provoking~~ questions.
Rules:
-
Posts must ask a question.
-
If the question asked is serious, answer seriously.
-
Questions where you want to learn more about socialism are allowed, but questions in bad faith are not.
-
Try !feedback@hexbear.net if you're having questions about regarding moderation, site policy, the site itself, development, volunteering or the mod team.
founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
you have a few forces, plus or minus stuff you require non-materialistic understanding to take seriously, with religion.
We should identify what Christianity is, actually.
**Christianity is - **A movement started by the word and actions of a Galilean Jewish man probably named something like Yeshua.
Yeshua is very likely a real historical person, there's enough documentation to support the idea that he was at the center of some kind of religious/political movement. There are a lot of different speculations on the nature of the Historical "Jesus" - but one I tend to favor is that he was possibly a genuine rebel against Roman occupation and the puppet dynasty ostensibly ruling over Judea at the time. He was killed, his movement dies, his followers are martyred or driven into hiding. At this point the memory of who he was starts becoming fuzzy, and the theology of Christianity starts diverging massively from whatever that Yeshua-driven message was, though a lot of it may actually survive. ** Christianity is a religious and political institution** - It was always intended to be, if you follow the narrative above, and always was in a certain sense. But when Constantine legitimizes it as a state backed religion, it becomes a tool of statecraft and the management of people. Which means that the priorities shift, especially so divorced from origin, from the justification and establishment of a socio-religious polity, to being direct machinery of the state (of the people who killed him no less). Even through the reformation and all the way to the present moment, its prime role has been political and behavioral justification. ** Christianity is the art of reading, interpreting, and applying the message of a handful of books and letters**, and reinterpreting materials made outside of it as an institution and movement.
There is more, but im moving on - what Christianity is, and therefore what Christians are, exist at the confluence of these factors. Because everything from the nature of how it started, to who/what is legitimate, to what it means to be Christian, to how to interpret its holy books and materials, are all points of contention - what a Christian is is actually fairly fluid.
Because of this, it's not actually helpful to frame this sort of nonsense as indicative of Christians being Christians, or there being some essential nature to a Christian we can dissect from the events in the OP.
In the united states, though, is a kind of protestant Christianity that:
a) has zero interest in unpacking "The Bible" or any other Christian materials. For anyone that isn't whatever passes for clergy in a given congregation, it's mostly social, and where thought is concerned, the relationship is receptive. This isn't a place of learning how to think about things. It's not a place you learn about the social impact of your behavior, except that Evangelism is Good, and Public, Narcissistic Acts of Prayer Show Piety. Understanding isn't a priority.
b) finds historical context and philosophical deconstruction of the source materials to be almost like, anathema, to the belief itself. Because this version of Christianity is so, utterly detached and unlike what it claims to be, most folks are not going to be able to understand the words in the book except by their own idiom and "common sense" - that the gospel of John is literally dripping in neoplatonic thought, and that the Apostle Paul is clearly like, an actual fucking mystic talking about esoteric and occult matters is not only lost on this group, it's heresy. It's satanic influence. It's so unlike what it says it is, there's no reconciling what's actually in those books with anything they prioritize.
c) is very specifically keyed to the interests of a very specific kind of powerful person. It has to fit into this idea of itself that serves the state, which is about instilling low information, emotionally driven action, and validating these experience through pretty basic psychological manipulations. I got to learn how the sausage is made for Charismatic and Pentecostal groups because I was being courted to join my friends in a school meant to create future pastors and church leaders. It nearly left me an atheist. It's all about guiding minds, terminating thought, and getting people who have nothing to cough it up so Pastor Fuckboy can buy a ferrari and has the clout to run for local, state, or national office. Or to be in a position to play kingmaker for such positions of power.
d) expects public displays and affirmation of belief, and is increasingly in a siege mindset that means each group prayer at your job is actually a fucking struggle session and loyalty test. To fail to participate sufficiently is to out yourself, and find yourself out of a job.
is this actually Christianity? As a huge fucking religion nerd - No. Absolutely not. Not really. Not in the sense that it has much of anything in common with whatever traces of the Jesus Movement as it really existed survives for us to compare to - in that way it's damn near a complete inversion of the tenets.
So to answer you finally, "Christians" aren't necessarily full of themselves, but in a lot of places these days, you will find people professing a christian faith that gleefully feeds narcissism such that "winning the football game" or "making a lot of money" are signs of favor and divine glory, is morally, inexplicably more akin to Norse larping than traditionally Christian views and behaviors, that is increasingly less interested as an entity in being anything more than what it's supposed to be - a mass manipulation tool.
Christians are like this because they're either mindfucked real deep. just a gaping hungry butthole in their brains desperate for a rod or to spew shit everywhere; or they're climbing. they're using this monstrosity to increase their own corporeal power.
I personally hate it.
Thank you for this fantastic post! I used to be something of a comparative religion nerd myself but fell out of it sometime ago but have been wanting to get back to studying again.
You seem like a good person to ask this question: what books would you recommend that try and uncover what the original Christianity movement started by Jesus was?
The one book I've found that investigates what scholars actually believe to be the authentic sayings of Jesus (or as close as they can ascertain based off of comparison of the various Gospels) is a book called "The Five Gospels: What Did Jesus Really Say? The Search for the Authentic Words of Jesus" by a group of biblical scholars that created the Jesus Seminar.
Is there any other books you'd recommend in that same vein?
Kautsky wrote old but still good book Foundations of Christianity (1908). Not exactly what you want but extremely relevant for anyone who is interested in materialist analysis of early christianity.
two suggestions
John of History, Baptist of Faith: The Quest for the Historical Baptizer. James McGrath, 2024. This one isn't about Jesus specifically. It is a deep investigation of his teacher, John the Baptist. In discussing this topic McGrath explores the political and religion situation in Judea at the time; John and Jesus's existence and relationship and how they were claimed by two emerging traditions, the Gnostics and the Christians, and reshaped by those groups to suit changing theology.
They Suffered under Pontius Pilate: Jewish Anti-Roman Resistance and the Crosses at Golgotha. Fernando Rubio, 2023. This one takes a look in detail at the Gospels' stories, arguing 1) Jesus was arrested, tried and executed by the Romans for rebellion, not the Jewish priesthood for blasthemy; 2) the early christians transformed his fellow martyrs, on his right and left, into bandits to dissociate their movement from rebellion; 3) the focus on Jesus and his divinity is a complete departure from his teachings which; 4) replace the actual socioeconomic sufferingsof the period and his parables with focus on the spiritual sufferings (e.g. transformation of "blessed are the poor" to "blessed are the poor in spirit")
I've been exposed to this argument before, and it has profoundly changed how I read the Gospels. The cracks that break it all down are two very single observations:
The Romans by all objective accounts were the Christkillers, not Jews. It was the Romans who scourged Christ, it was the Romans who drove the nails into his body, and it was the Romans who almost ran a spear through his body in order to hasten his death.
Despite the objective fact that the title of Christkiller should be placed upon the collective heads of the Romans, do the received Gospels actively portray the Romans as Christkillers or do they try to obfuscate this objective fact?
A lot of the parables and events also make more sense when you remember that Judea is being occupied by Rome. Jesus chasing out the tax collectors was him decolonizing a temple by throwing out Roman collaborators. Jesus telling the young rich man he's not going to heaven is basically him telling off some Roman collaborator who got rich out of selling out his fellow Judean. Judas was the ancient equivalent of a Palestinian working with Mossad for money.
There's really nothing off hand I can offer that answers your specific question, unfortunately. I can look through some stuff and see where I got my ideas, but that'll take more time than I have tonight.
for books on thinking about religion and athropology more generally, i have to recommend Existential Anthropology by Michael Jackson (no relation hee hee) - despite not being specifically about religion, i feel it... really is helpful in creating a useful mindset for approaching religion & human society-centric topics in an academic and scholarly manner - tbqh it gets frustrating that this kind of education isn't a more important part of marxist studies, because it would radically alter the left's ability to engage with people for whom religion is often the dividing line between us and them.
i can possibly assemble a few others. I'll see what I can do - DM me so i don't forget about this and i'll throw some stuff your way when i have time.
In the mean time, i can at least point you to educational (non polemical/apologetic and backed up with real data) videos.
I highly recommend Religion For Breakfast and Let's Talk Religion. The former has a doctorate and is a pretty serious scholar. His videos often invite the view to comport themselves to a more academic understanding of the material before explaining things.
I would be careful to rely overly on materials that are speculative or are kinda... normie facing? the stuff that's made for sale as something you might readily find at barnes & noble or half-price books - as that stuff will not be trying to teach you how to think about and approach religious topics in a neutral, truth-seeking manner.
This is a Religion For Breakfast video about the parallels between modern fandoms & similar phenomena, and classical religion, and iirc to make sure the distinctions are understood he tries to read the viewer in to a more helpful mindset to think about these things in.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eU8w4KxoyRk
Let's Talk Religion is also ace stuff, but is more Islam-focused, and is, imo, really quite valuable in a very similar way.
I do read, but this stuff is a lot better to put in my head than entertainment slop, so i tend to favor it when i'm trying to distract myself. Lets me learn while being lazy.
They post their sources, back up their claims and analysis, and are generally a good starting point for deconstructing religious matters.
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
I don't think there is any consensus about it. There seems to be multiple sources for non-primary texts through the years. As well the accounts we have seem to be a combination of different local legends from diffrent times. I think there is one thread to pull though. Some more modern biblical scholars think the underlying set of works exist. They called it the Q gospel set. I have no idea how valid any of that is though. Plus, it basically seems like a bronze age peasant yearning for the good old days of primitive communism to me.
Incredibly well condensed post! I grew up being groomed to be one of the "flock" myself. Had a room mate that got me in deep in conspiracy theory and prosperity gospel stuff for a while. Glad I'm out.
Wondering if you have any resources on the bit about Paul and mysticism/occult things?