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Women and LGBTQ+ people take up guns after Trump’s win: ‘We need to protect ourselves’
(www.theguardian.com)
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this post was submitted on 26 Nov 2024
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Whoa, I’m not attacking you. I have a difference in opinion as to why people should be armed. Not saying that one does not have a right to self defense, just that i put stock in the need to collectively hold the government accountable and fight tyranny
It sounds good until the majority of gun owners in the country decide they like the tyranny.
Would you argue that the resistive elements in nazi Germany were wrong?
Not whatsoever, but we're in the US, where although some leftists are armed, the dominant gun culture isn't going to come out to defeat tyranny, they will come out to defend it. If Trump goes full dictator, these hypothetical armed antifascists resistance fighters will have to fight their way through legions of y'allqaeda before the US military (who I desperately hope will not recognize Trump's authority in such a circumstance) ever has to worry about them.
In that case, that sounds like the left needs to get weapons and become organized, like i recommend. And not turn over and assume that the majority will let them live free… as a treat.
You are basically arguing to give up and die because it’s too hard.
I'm not arguing at all. The left should arm themselves. But if things go like they are going, they'll never see the US military, it won't be about fighting a tyrannical government; they'll be fighting all their neighbors and relatives who are trying to defend that tyrannical government.
And frankly, echoing the other poster, ultimately that fight will likely be in the form of self-defense.
You don't need to rebut my comments, I'm not really arguing with you. Just expressing doubt that any tyrannical government will be directly harmed by citizens exercising the 2A. You can disagree without trying to convince me I'm wrong, that's just fine.
If you resort to only self defense, you will lose. You do not project power by watching your neighbor fail to defend themselves and then wait for your turn. The sneering others give saying i think i am some Rambo able to fight off tyranny with just my wits and a rifle like an action hero, is literally the opposite of what i am saying. That would be more true of someone thinking could fight off the systemic oppression of tyranny by looking out for only for themselves.
If you don’t want to discuss this because you are unable to argue the point that’s fine, but these discussions are literally about trying to convince others holding opposite views that their point of view is wrong. It’s literally the point.
I'm not sneering, and I'm not arguing. I'm expressing doubt that armed citizens will pose any threat to a hypothetical Trump dictatorship. That's 100% as far as my statement goes. I'm sharing my opinion, not disparaging yours.
The Black Panthers caused the CIA to label them terrorists even though they broke no laws, and got the NRA to push for gun restrictions. These armed citizens scared the police, and had the news media slandering them. And it’s because they posed a huge threat to the system. The last four wars were essentially lost against militants of objectively less organized, less armed, smaller, decentralized insurgents. Asymmetric warfare is not just a thing, but the Achilles heel to power. There is nothing unique about a trump dictatorship that would make these less true
I'm very aware of the history of the Mulford act, thanks!
When're you gonna start?
And you can see why, from what I already wrote, that is not likely to work unless the majority is on your side. And the military.
The military has had a pretty lousy track record against gorilla warfare from much smaller, worse armed groups who, by the width of an ocean were unable to affect logistical lines, the means to project warfare, or the families of our soldiers. A Revolution within would be much worse.
How many innocent people died in those wars? It's not very nice of you to be willing to put their lives on the line like that.
Oh? Now it’s a discussion about who should be sacrificed and for what. Freedom always has a cost. I never removed myself from the possibility. But right now, the royal “we”, seem to be sacrificing the minority, the different, the poor, the non christian and it gets worse every day. Freedoms are slipping, corporations get stronger, and standards of living and hope for the future fades. This will only accelerate. Arguing to arm oneself for personal protection but not collective action will doom all, but the chosen, to be picked off one by one.
So when are you going to start shooting?
When it’s needed. I don’t see a path that prevents tyranny or revolution, but that doesn’t mean there is none. You say that people should arm themselves, and i agree, the main difference being what we see as the threat i guess. But I take inspiration from the Black Panthers. I believe they were right and righteous in their actions, no matter what was taught in schools. And you know they were effective, because the state conspired against them and they got the NRA TO ARGUE FOR MORE RESTRICTIVE GUN LAWS because they have a certain power dynamic they want to uphold.
I don't remember the Black Panthers starting a guerilla war like what you're advocating for.
When is this guerilla war going to be "needed?"
I’m not saying a gorilla war is needed. I am saying collective action is needed.
The reason i bring up gorilla warfare is because of the “there is no point in fighting tyranny because it’s too hard” argument. in the recent wars verses gorilla warfare and insurgency, it has been an absolute shit show boondoggle for the last 3 wars we have been in. And that is with the advantage of untouchable logistics, the world’s largest, and most secure, military industrial complex, top of the line weapons and training, and the homeland being unreachable.
Either way it’s best if those we care about own and become proficient in fire arms.
You're saying collective action with firearms is needed. Which, as I already showed, is probably doomed to failure.
You haven’t showed anything. You asserted. And i brought up the black panthers as the counter argument.
It was not a counter argument because the black panthers were not fighting back against a genocidal regime, which is what queer people are facing. If Jews marched around Nazi Germany with guns, they would have just been picked off by snipers from rooftops.
Are you saying if the lgbtq community formed a militia and walked around american streets, they would be gunned down by snipers? We are not at that point yet, so a militia like the Black Panthers is needed. But if we are at the point where the government is sniping its citizens, then we would need an insurgency.
If by, "we are not at that point yet," you mean that it's 1932 and Hitler is going to take power in two months and then it will be too late, sure.
Then, as I said, it will be too late. There were plenty of insurgencies against the Nazis. They didn't work.
It would not be too late if at this point, before snipers starts shooting, that militias start to form and the minority arm up and train now. That’s why i am pushing this. And it’s never too late to fight for freedom. Just because the insurgencies against the nazis didn’t “win” doesn’t mean it wasn’t worth doing. The point of the insurgency is to “not lose“ and every life saved was worth the effort.
Okay, so who are you gathering up to train? Because just telling people your plan on social media and expecting it to happen in two months is not especially realistic.
That’s a good question. I guess the start is finding like minded people, or convincing others to be receptive of the ones that form if not get them actuated themselves. So what i am attempting now. There was that group of armed protestors that stand watch over planned parenthood clinics. They satisfy a price of the puzzle
You're not going to be able to train those like-minded people in military tactics over the internet.
What are your own experience in military tactics anyway? You don't seem to know how to spell 'guerilla' since you keep spelling it like the animal, so I'm not so sure you have much.
I generally have you in high regard here on Lemmy. We have had discussions in the past and i made a concerted effort to not attack you. I have been civil. So i will have to ask you to look past my difficulties in spelling, and my constant battle against auto correct. I have military training, but they are not necessary to effectively organize, or train in fire arms.
So you have no actual ability to train people to fight in this revolution of yours and you have not gathered anyone together. I assume you haven't raised any funds or stockpiled any armor (let alone weapons). You have two months to achieve your goal. And yet this sounds achievable to you?
I don’t think a Revolution in two month’s is a good idea. Again at this stage, militias such as the Black Panthers would be much more effective.
You are attempting to discredit my position by setting arbitrary unrealistic expectations, and pointing out my incapability in pulling that off.
You are not any longer arguing against the principle of my argument. It would take time, and the first steps is to lay the ground work for it to happen such as, convincing people of the need and effectiveness of militias.
Were you the one who is said they were leaving the states due to expected tyranny?
All you have is two months. Then the genocide begins. Sorry. If you wanted armed revolution to happen, it's too late. They're already building the concentration camps.