this post was submitted on 21 Sep 2024
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"The good of the people" is a noble enough goal. Unfortunately, the people in charge of these movements are people who deliberately seek power, and for the most part, those people are vain greedy, brutal, a-holes.
"Don't trust anyone who tells you what to do"
"Okay, I'm not going to trust you."
"No, you idiot! That's not what I meant!"
So, anyway, let's talk about why the Anarchists of the Spanish Civil War got absolutely rolled by the well organized and disciplined Fascists. Then maybe pop over to Russia, China, Cuba, Korea, and Vietnam, and consider why Marxism have had a better record on self defense.
FTFY
Please ignore the history of Anarchists fighting the Communists, it simply must have been the dirty Marxists betraying the noble Anarchists.
Are you referring to instances in which Anarchist groups in the Spanish Civil War took actions to hurt Communist groups? I won't claim it didn't happen, but I don't know of examples.
I'm referring to the general distrust of Anarchists by the Communists. They fought against the Anarchists of Russia during the Russian Civil War, yet still supplied the Spanish Anarchists with weapons and vehicles. The general fact that Anarchists struggle with organization and Communists generally don't to nearly the same degree compounded this.
By what manner do you say the Communists betrayed the Anarchists?
USSR-aligned groups, where they had power in Spain, in many instances used that power to imprison, smear, and seize weapons from, and attack non-USSR-aligned groups. You can look up José Cazorla's anti-subversion measures in Madrid, or PSUC's attacks on POUM during the Barcelona May Days.
Yes, and the anti-USSR groups used their power to imprison, smear, seize weapons from, and attack USSR-aligned groups.
It wasn't a "betrayal," it was a conflict in how the war should be fought. The Anarchists tried to stick to decentralization even within the context of war, and lost. Had the Anarchists adopted a more Marxist line, they may have succeeded.
I'm not sure they did, at least not preemptively. Do you have examples?
What's your understanding of the entire situation? Are you suggesting that it was going well until the Communists backstabbed the Anarchists? Taking a real, materialist analysis of the situation is necessary. Historically, Communists and Anarchists have had uneasy alliances until differences in organizational theory lead to friction and then conflict.
I don't know how the war would have gone if those events hadn't taken place, but it seems to have undermined the strength of the popular front. And from what I've read the anarchists were sufficiently organized. The type of Anarchism popular amongst the Spanish was a syndicalist strain very different from the hyper-individualism people expect from anarchists today.
Why do you think it happened? You implied the fighting was one-sided and a betrayal.
Why what happened? As far as why Anarchists were attacked by communists, it is ppssible the USSR was more interested in developing a strategic ally than simply fighting Fascists. As far as why Franco won, I think the biggest reason was his much greater international support from Germany, Italy, and even American corporate powers.
You're dancing around the issues, I'm asking why you say the Communists "betrayed" the Anarchists, as though it was a one-sided afair.
I mentioned examples. I don't know of any counter-examples.
You may find this interesting.
Hate to be betrayed by not having enough tanks sent to me. Maybe if the Spanish anarchists had all the military equipment they wanted, they would have won, but the war-torn Russians couldn't afford to waste equipment on the shittily organized anarchists, so now I'm going to whinge about it for a century as though that makes them equivalent to (or worse than) the fascists who actually killed them!
The Spanish Civil War wasn't anarchists vs fascists. There was a popular front that included anarchists, socialists, communists, liberals. The USSR-associated groups made a grab for power over the anarchist factions, which can't have helped the war effort.
There was logistical involvement from the USSR itself, which is what I thought you were referring to. I have nothing to say one way or another about internal factionalism, besides that the whole basis of your riff is still equivocating with or in fact making the Communists out to be worse than the Francoists, which I find to be in poor taste. You come off even worse than those dweebs who fellate the Makhnovist.
Do you have nothing to say to Cowbee?
My only goal was to push back on the notion that the Spanish Civil War was lost due to anarchist disorganization. I'm not sure what response the other commenter warrants, it's just a quip.
...
The people in authority betrayed us.
It's not an empirical claim if you have literal examples of how badly "communism" (self-serving oligarchy) has failed.
I'll start with the collapse of the Soviet Union in the 1990s. And I hope I don't even need to point out what Mao did to China.
Can you make any analysis? Vaguely gesturing doesn't mean anything.
Stop simping for billionaires. It's embarrassing to watch.
I'm a Communist, of course I don't simp for billionaires.
People = problem