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On tankies and online discourse about them
(lemmy.eco.br)
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this post was submitted on 13 Sep 2024
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chapotraphouse
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Most do realise this. Most are oriented this way. Most are aware of which side they are on. They are liberals who use radical language to appear more left than they actually are. The appearance of leftism you sometimes see in them is worn as a fashion accessory because somewhere deep down they do know their positions are immoral so they wear the left as a fashion to feel more moral than they actually are.
As for the phrase "tankie". It is a tool wielded by different groups against anyone to their left. Anarchists use it against communists. Socdems use it against all revolutionaries, anarchist or communists, and liberals use it against all of these groups. It is a tool used identically to "woke" by reactionaries, which is deployed against everyone to the left of the reactionary clique in order to shut down the brains of everyone that considers themselves part of that clique. Once you deploy the word "woke" everyone is to not listen to anything the woke person says, so as to not actually learn anything or do critical thought. This is the same for the word tankie, it is deployed to prevent people listening to others and thusly to not learn anything. The two factions of liberalism both use the same tactics.
The goal the tool has is to prevent social political development.
I do know most people are aware of this tactic. But I feel I also encounter people who are similar to ultras in the sense that they defy everyone, be it the US, China, Russia or whatever, but end up inadvertently (I think) focusing their attacks on opponents of the US, be they communists or not.
I think I know a lib when I see one. I am referring to people who say "Fuck the CCP, fuck the US" and truly believe in what they are saying, and then end up online attacking mostly the former out of some gullible principle.
Maybe you're right and the people I'm describing don't exist, or are so few in number as to be irrelevant. But a lib makes more sense to me than these people.
Ahh I see where you're coming from.
This is nationalism. It is unaddressed deeply rooted nationalism that these people have not yet exorcised from themselves.
When you remove the nationalism from them successfully and create internationalists, this behaviour stops and they become proper leftists. We do not have very sophisticated movements for deprogramming nationalism and creating internationalist mindsets at the current time, it just sorta happens. If we could build solid methods of achieving this outcome we could very rapidly turn all of this type of person.
Hmmm. This is something I would call Western chauvinism, but I guess you gave it a more generalised definition.
You see the same behaviour occur among some outside the west as well. In those case it is when the individuals have bourgeoise-nationalist tendencies rather than proletarian-nationalist tendencies.
Within the empire internationalism needs to be promoted, outside the empire proletarian-nationalism needs to be promoted. The result within the empire is it brings people to an anti-imperialist position and the result outside the empire is it brings people to an anti-imperialist position. The bourgeoise-nationalist tendency outside the empire causes pro-imperialism in the form of things like the Gusanos.
It's the same thing in slightly different conditions. Inside the empire there is no proletarian-nationalism though, only bourgeoise-nationalism with internationalism being the true proletarian opposition to it.
Ah, yes, of course. I specified western because I had in mind certain people I've seen using lemmy, as I mentioned in the OP, which, as far as I've gathered, is populated mostly by westerners.
Yep yep I understand why you did. I just wanted to clarify why the root of this is nationalism.
I think "western chauvinism" doesn't truly get to the root of it. It's unclear what to do to fix it. Whereas with nationalism there is a very clear solution. Although to a certain degree "western chauvinism" does play on american liberals quite well because they don't want to be viewed as racists.
Even outside the West nationalism should be limited, because it is very easy to overdo and then it destroys proletarian solidarity from within.
Depends on the class-character of the nationalism. There is a distinct difference between proletarian-nationalism and bourgeoise-nationalism. Irish, Palestinian, south american and african comrades all need proletarian-nationalism and display class solidarity with each other's struggles. It is bourgeoise-nationalism that does not.
There are definitely two different types of nationalism in the historically exploited countries of the periphery.
You can't really have proletarian nationalism without bourgeois nationalism. Look at Poland, for example, its pre-1917 proletarian nationalists either went full communist or full bourgeois nationalist, because proletarian nationalism is an unstable middle ground that can exist only in very specific conditions.
That's always going to happen, when the revolution dawns there is always going to be a faction siding with the bourgeoise and a faction siding with the proles and a civil war that breaks out as a result of that. What happened with how Poland has become today is because it integrated into the EU and stopped being hyper exploited part of the periphery.
No, I'm talking about interwar Poland. Piłsudski presented himself as a left-wing nationalist and after Poland regained independence he did more damage to the left than the right could even dream.
Nationalism is dangerous, because it can easily divert significant part of working class for the defense of capitalism.