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Both sides!
(lemmy.world)
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this post was submitted on 28 Jul 2024
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Evaluating groups based on their goals rather than their methods is a problem. The Far Left wants everyone's needs met, but historically (and even today in places like China) end up putting a bunch of people in camps and gulags to achieve that goal, squashing dissents to meet that goal, and banning the practicing of religions to meet that goal, kill political dissidents to meet that goal.
If the Left wants to win those Centrists they need to assert their belief in individual rights; they need to disavow the Socialists and Communists of the past and present who implemented those horrible things. When you have prominent American leftists like Bernie on record praising Venezuela; praising the USSR etc... it makes them appear equivalent.
Reductionist, I too would like to live in Utopia.
If you live in the US, Japan, Australia, New Zealand, Canada Western Europe etc... you are living in the closest thing to a Utopia the world has ever known.
Listening to the far left to see if you like leftist ideas it like listening to the far right to see if you like conservative ideas. Both are just going to tell you that everyone needs to die.
Try talking to a non-crazy proponent of an ideology before you come to a conclusion.
I don't know if listening to prominent politicians like Bernie Sanders who is the defacto leader of the left wing movement in the US qualifies as talking to someone who is "far left". He seems pretty representative of that movement.
Did Bernie Sanders praise the USSR or want to put people in the gulags? I don't remember him ever doing that. Got a link?
Here's one of many stories discussing his 1980s era praise of the USSR. I suggest working the google for more, plentiful links.
Sander's support for the USSR was pretty broad, full throated and unqualified. And he was very vocal about it for a long time. It wasn't until a decade and a half after the USSR fell as he became a Presidential candidate that he started to walk back his support.
In the modern era he has had similar support for Casto era Cuba and Chavez era Venezuela.
The closest thing this article has to a quote of Bernie Sanders was.
Which is not necessarily praising the ideology of the USSR. Just that self-criticism is not something you would see in a government like the USSR and it was refreshing.
Googling: "What is Bernie Sanders position on USSR" gets me:
I can see how a lot of people can mistakenly thing Bernie Sanders has a full throated positive option of the USSR because of all the propaganda. Remember if Bernie Sanders says something like "I like that the USSR provides health care for it's citizens" or "I like that Casto era Cuba has the highest literacy rates in the world", that does not mean that Bernie Sanders is in favor of doing everything that the USSR or Casto era Cuba has done. I didn't search for Chavez era Venezuela because USSR and Cuba things seem like a bust and I just assumed that the Venezuela thing would be more of the same. If not, let me know.
If you have a quote from Bernie Sanders saying specifically we should become authoritarian or something like that. I would like to know about it.
So your argument is:
Yes Bernie, the defacto thought leader of the "normal" left wing in the United States, has offered wide support for the USSR, Venezula, Cuba and other Socialists dictatorships; but he's never explicitly said that we should become authoritarians; he's just supported the policies, outcomes and goals of the nations that left wing authoritarians have built. So it's completely unreasonable for Centrits in America to worry that he'd support a left wing authoritarian?
No, your interpretation is reactionary.
Think about it like this. Most people think boy scouts in the US are a good thing right? Let's say we didn't have boy scouts. And some guy said, "Hey, Nazi Germany had boy scouts and that did a lot of good things, and some bad things. Let's make something like that, but not do the bad stuff". Using your logic, you would say, "This guy is a Nazi because boy scouts are a Nazi thing and this will lead the US to become fascist and authoritarian". But the thing is, you can create boy scouts without the fascism. Just like you can create single payer health care without an authoritarian leader, and you can create high literacy rates without being communist or whatever Cuba was.
I mean, if you can explain how single payer health care and literacy programs lead to authoritarian outcomes. I am very interested in hearing about that because I can't see it.
P.S. I don't think Bernie is the defacto though leader of the "normal" left wing, but I think he is close enough.
What if the guy trying to set up the Boy Scouts regularly called themselves a fascist? Bernie, AOC and others in that sphere have "leaned in" to the Socialist label. Using your logic if a Fascist was like those "Nazi's Boy Scouts did good shit we should do that same shit." Would you consider it reasonable to worry about that movement becoming more widely fascist?
Remember when Bernie was the Senate's overviewer of the VA, the largest Single Payer Healthcare system in North America? And he called reports given to his office of the wait list scandal (where the VA would internationally and systemically let vets die without care to avoid caring for them) a right wing conspiracy and dismissed them. Which prolonged the time before the scandal was dealt with.
That immediate belief that "things that go against my world view are anti-socialist conspiracies" is exactly the pattern that causes the societal decline in Socialist societies. And that's the mindset that causes those societies to jail and punish people bringing complaints or opposing views rather than attempting to improve their societies.
So it's not, single payer healthcare causes authoritarian societies. It's centralized control of formerly private production administered by people with a Socialist mindset causes increasingly authoritarian societies.
Well, if they called themselves a fascist or did things with fascist outcomes I would be very concerned. I would probably try to vote that guy out or try some other way to get them removed and hope someone else could create a boy scouts program with out being fascist.
Is your position that Bernie hates all US Vets and wants them to die? If so, how does killing vets help get the US to socialism? If anything, it makes Bernie look really bad.
How does centralized control government control of things result in authoritarian societies? I would agree with you, if we didn't have a democracy, is that what you are getting at?
In this instance, the people doing the needful are calling themselves socialists.Hence the reason the centrists are concerned.
My point is that Bernie believes in socialism so much that he's willing to ignore US Vets dying
Centralizing control centralizes control. It creates one single point of failure to create an authoritarian society. Venezuela is currently experiencing how well democracies protect from authoritarians.
If Bernie cared about socialism so much he wouldn't have ignored the US Vets dying. That made him and anything he stood for look really bad, if anything you could say that Bernie doing this was an OP against leftism.
Ok, so it sounds like your definition of authoritarian is any power given to any government. You don't just have a problem with socialism. You have a problem with democracy as well.
So then do you dislike everyone? Leftists, Centrists, and Conservatives? Democrats, Republicans, and Liberals? Are these all authoritarians?
Sander's is likely the most sincere public figure in his support of his policies. It's clear to me, and everyone who watches him (even those who are in opposition to him) that he truly cares and believes in the causes he supports. Especially those that are part of his core platform.
If your plan is to "no true Scotsman" Sanders I can assure you that not only is that an "incorrect" position to have; but it's absolutely not one that will be seen as believable by the Centrists in the top level meme.
Every form of government comes with a risk of an Authoritarian takeover. Certain actions (like centralization vs. decentralization being just one of many things that helps decide that). But Socialism explicitly calls for creating a heavily centralize givernment that makes it very straightforward for a dictatorship to arise. Quashing the sort of dissent needed to avoid dictatorship and even going as far as endorsing the idea of a "Dictatorship of the Proletariat" to modify society into the ideal Communist population.
In a sense you're correct that I have problems with most forms of governence when evaluating the chance of an authoritarian taking over. But Socialism endorses that so it's pretty well at the top of the list.
I agree that Sanders is a democratic socialist. I am confused as to why you brought this incident up then. I thought you were trying to prove that Sanders was an authoritarian, but it seems like we both agree that this was a mistake he made and not some outcome that he wanted to happen or that was aligned with his ideology.
It's not clear to me that Socialism explicitly calls for that, maybe I have missed that. But Bernie is a Democratic Socialist. I understand this to mean that democracy would be used to create the laws, not an authoritarian. A similar concept to what the US uses today.
Sorry for the delay been a crazy week.
Emphasis added by me. I'm saying that to a Centrist (and honestly to myself too). Sander's actions to dismiss problems in a desired government program is aligned with his ideology. And a viewing of the record of Socialism and Socialist thought has seen that same patter arise over and over again.
Some OG Source but the context here is, after Das Kapital. The Socialist ideology takes off. Movements in Marx's lifetime to "vote in" Socialism arose, in this instance in Germany. Marx criticizes this attempt instead of advocating for revolution and dictatorial control exercised by a smaller group of Socialist leaders eg. the "Dictatorship of the Proletariat" (wikipedia summary that's easier reading).
Capitalism is a system that's designed to orchestrate the economy of a state. It offers some suggestions for the content of its society and the organization of its government but it is largely agnostic. And has been successfully used alongside Dictatorships, Republics, and Monarchs alike. Socialism dictates not just the economy of a state, but the makeup and mores of its society along with the organization of its Government. There are many modern Socialists who are led to believe that Socialism is compatible with a modern, Western society and Republic; but it pretty explicitly rejects it. Bernie, I believe, is one of those people. But when given power he exercised that power in the same fashion that non-Democratic Socialists of the past have done. That should be concerning to all people, including Centrists.
No need to apologies, I hope things are going well.
So your saying Sanders has an anti-government ideology? To say another way, Sanders want to maximize the amount of dismissed problems in the government? I mean maybe, but I am not buying it because he then worked to pass the Veterans Access, Choice and Accountability Act. Why fix something you broke intentionally? I also don't see how this is a step towards becoming an authoritarian leader. Trump is doing way better at becoming an authoritarian leader than Sanders and he isn't even trying.
For the sake of this discussion I will agree with you that the original concept of Socialism required an authoritarian leader. Bernie doesn't claim to be a Socialist, he claims to be a Democratic Socialist.
I don't understand why we are talking about Capitalism. Did Bernie say he would get rid of it if he could?
Yes, if Bernie was authoritarian, I would agree. But no one knows that except Bernie. Any political leader can be a sleeper authoritarian. Even George Washington could have been an authoritarian and just waited too long to do anything about it. I can only work on what a leader has said and done, not what is secretly in their head. I haven't heard or seen anything from Bernie that indicates he is authoritarian.
No. What about what I said makes you think that? Sander's intent is pro-government and pro-grovernment control of healthcare along with a wide range of other economic and social industries. Just because the effect of his actions makes us less likely to want government control of healthcare doesn't mean that was the intent of his action.
Except for the one time that he was given power over a system and expressed authoritarian tendencies?
Ohhhhh!
I think I see the problem. You and I have different definition of authoritarian.
For me, if Bernie becomes president and get rid of democracy, the house, the senate, and the supreme court and becomes the "supreme" leader of the US, that would be authoritarian.
For you (I think) it if Bernie creates a government reading program to help kids read better is is authoritarian because that would give power to the government regardless if we are a democracy or lead by a "supreme" leader.
Ok, so to be clear, I haven't seen anything from Bernie to indicate that he is being my definition of authoritarian. So I don't see an issue. You have been giving me example of Bernie doing and saying things that match your definition of authoritarian, which is quite a lot given he is a Democratic Socialist. You're confused as to why I don't see this as a problem. Am I close?
So I think this is one of those situations where we actually agree on what Bernie is about. It's just that I think we should have reading programs and single payer healthcare and you do not.
Shit, I wish I had caught this sooner.
Nice sarcasm.