DarkCloud

I never denied famines or the gulag system, I specifically said the gulag system was a horrible system of political persecution.

If Gaza was suddenly powerful, youd see a horrible series of massacres against Israelis. After the french revolution you had a horrible series of executions and white terror.

Systems of Authoritarian oppression often occur after revolutions, during famines, or during times of instability. That's human nature in all systems.

What Lysenko did to perpetuate famines (to maintain his position) was in no way small. Now you're minimizing the undesired and unintended famines.

They were directed politically after the fact but neither China nor Russia wanted them. No government actively wants a famine... Yet you'll happily attribute it to these two governments in particular.

Are there other national famines you incorrectly think were desired by governments/ideologies?

...and I'm not talking about artificial shortages such as in Ireland, Bengal, or the concentration camps of the boer war... You know, Colonial famines.

Modern Monetary Theory is an alternative to Neo-Liberalism, which is Austrian-School economics in disguise.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism#traditions

The Thirdway was a step to the right, and a dropping of Socialist values. Modern Monetary Theory keeps what's progressive, points out that inflation is the only constraint of spending in a sovereign fiat currency and does it all through historical facts and rigor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5JTn7GS4oA

I find it far more impressive than the pure-theory based economic schools. The common misconception is that MMT pushes for unconstrained spending when it's in fact very clear about what causes inflation.

that the USSR committed atrocities is not exactly compelling.

I literally called it a terrible system of political persecution.

The linked wiki page clearly outlines Lysenko's career, and nothing about it suggests that his work became ultra-popular ten years early

People don't just pop to the top, Lemarckanism was the debate of that age, and farming wasn't easy anywhere at the time, even America had shortages and famines due to the dustbowl.

Downplaying and denying atrocities of red fascist states is not welcome here. This is your only warning.

Oh look, a Liberal is about to ban dissent from a progressive. Fuckin suprise suprise my guy!

As stated in the other thread correct attribution of causes is not denial or apologia. Did I deny the 1 million dead in the gulag system? Did I deny the famines?

...and on your point. The linked page and others elsewhere confirm Lysenko's ideas were on the rise before 1938, and were involved in the 1930s causes of Holodomor.

I said the Ba'ath Party in modern Syria. But that shit was all founded post sykes pico anyways.

you're literally already playing apologist for red fascist states with well-documented atrocities and genocides to their name.

Correct attribution of causes has NOTHING to do with apologia. Which is why I've also corrected attributed the genocides and atrocities Liberal, Neo-Liberal and Economic Liberal Philosophies caused and contributed to.

That's not apoligia for them either. I'll say it again in case you missed it: Correct attribution is NOT apologia. It's quite correct to step away from things you disagree with, including when progressives step away from Liberals.

Thanks, I did not know that!

Who are you talking about as "them"?

I don't give a fuck who was responsible

What a beautiful example of how quickly a Liberal becomes Fascist.

Iran

Iran isn't Socialist. The Ba'ath Party in Syria are largely a product of US meddling in the middle east, a lot of which was done by - you guessed it - democratic Liberals coopted into helping the fascists perpetuating Capitalist greed!

You shouldn't be defending them [Socialist Authoritarians], rather you should be blaming them for tainting and poisoning the words Socialism and Communism and preventing the actual ideology behind it from entering mainstream discussions.

Oh, I'm arguing wrong am I? Using too many facts.

Poor fool, you've assumed I'm a Socialist, merely because I have a grasp on history. Nope, I'm a modern progressive. But yeah keep pushing me left, you Liberal Fascists. Move to Hungry, go be buddies with Orban or Israel. Go hold the door open for right-populism some more. Let in as much Capitalist Fascism as people can stand. It's what you do best.

You are incorrect, the mass famines of the USSR and CCP were mostly caused by a single conman, named Trofim Lysenko, who was lying about agricultural techniques/results in order to keep his job (taking his bag like a true economic opportunist):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trofim_Lysenko#views

Here's a whole Behind The Bastards podcast about it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t05d8MPzfvs

To that point, even the Gulag system whilst being a horrible and targeted system of political persecution, even there the vast majority of victims survived (1 million died in Gulags, 17 million survived). So you're adopting misinformation because you're coopted into Capitalism.

...this is the whole point The Frankfurt School "Cultural Marxists" (people like Marcuse and Adorno) were making. Capitalism is full of such pro-Capitalist propaganda, which Liberals believe without researching it.

Meanwhile almost all Colonialism, since the French Revolution, and the Free Market genocides of the Congo and bengal/india (aka The British East India Company) were done by Liberal minded Economic Capitalists... Intentionally killing WAY MORE PEOPLE with the Liberalism of their day (which turned the other cheek due to racism and sexism).

So I hate to break it to you, but Historical and Cultural versions of your Liberal Philosophies massacred and killed WAY MORE PEOPLE, and did so WAY MORE INTENTIONALLY, than the USSRs and CCPs unwanted famines combined.

But like every Liberal, you have to ignore solid facts of history in order to make your fake claims. You were willingly coopted back then, just like you're being right now. The only question is whether it's intentional or a product of ignorance.

"The Liberals are forcing us to vote with the other Liberals."

Hey look! It's the thing everyone is complaining about! So, so easily coopted into Fascism and "free" market inequalities.

Who are you siding with today Liberals?

Liberals: "We are once again going to be voting for the problems to continue, and refusing to look at solutions from outside our particular worldview or economic understandings... essentially being the lynch pins of it all, whilst claiming to be the one force with power enough to protect a marginal amount of compassion and benevolence built into the system (which we claim to have put there when it was largely Socialist protest movements and activists). Things are bad, but without us things would get worse and then very desperate."

Liberals: Proud of maintaining and further worsening a collapsing system they'll happily watch others die to defend! ;)

A high minded school of thought for the naive and the wealthy alike! The exact two groups the right wing abuse to justify their views too.

Yeah yeah "true Libertarianism/Communism/Me-ism" has never been tried.

...all ideologies are "ideas not parties". But at some point Liberals in the west have to admit their representatives are regularly coopted by fascism at a much higher rate than progressives and those left of them.

Liberals are part of the wests systemic problems.

I was talking about representatives.