I mean, do you think Islamophobia is rooted in theological disputes? The Christian nationalists who find common ground between Catholics, evangelicals, Eastern Orthodox, and Jews hate Muslims because of their almost indistinguishable tenets of faith?
Yep. While technically being an Islamophobe isn’t racist, odds are the reason one is an Islamophobe has very little to do with them being Islamic.
I hate Islam. I'm not racist.
I also hate any religion that states unequivocally in their holy book that certain classes of people are less than others.... which is a core tenet of Islamic and Christian beliefs.
I couldn't actually tell you if it's in the Tanakh, but it very well wouldn't surprise me.
Any positive experience and interaction I have with a Muslim is in spite of their beliefs and their religion being a bit backwards in places.
Edit: I also hate any religion that preaches that people are inherently evil or unworthy of salvation...... that shit is toxic af.
Also, the hateful person does not care to distinguish between race, ethnicity, religion, or whatever other aspect they decide to hate. They have classified some attributes as making people not like them and hateable. The framework of analysis you are using is immaterial to the racist. That is, they do care that they are Islamic, just not with any subtlety.
I'm content to shit all over your religion regardless of your ethnicity.
Uh, you sure about the Jews there bud? I don't recall many Christian nationalists having a particularly high opinion of Judaism. In fact I'd say they hate Jews more than they hate muslims
Have you never tried a Hebrew National? Shit is lit.
Bigotry is intersectional. You know damn well what people are trying to say, and what hateful bullshit they're responding to.
When some redcap uses "Muslim" as a synecdoche for spitting out middle-eastern stereotypes, they're not engaging in comparative religious criticism, or making some grand philosophical argument. They're being a racist asshole. Even if the label they use is not a race. If you haven't noticed - racist assholes love tiny excuses to say 'what's so racist about--?!' whatever dehumanizing caricature they just attributed to some associated label. Like "thugs." Or "bankers."
Bankers aren't an ethnicity... but people screaming about "bankers controlling the media" are definitely talking about an ethnicity.
When some redcap uses "Muslim" as a synecdoche for spitting out middle-eastern stereotypes, they're not engaging in comparative religious criticism, or making some grand philosophical argument.
This is true, but when I'm having a discussion about religion and I feel like I'm done criticizing christianity and move on to islam for a bit, people shouldn't say "woah, that sounds a bit racist", and some people still do. I'm very left leaning but I have to say it's mostly people who consider themselves progressive or left leaning, who have trouble separating these things.
Do you often find yourself in "discussions about religion" where your primary contribution is to complain about Christianity and Islam?
Do you also criticize Judaism? Zoroastrianism? Buddhism?
Or is it just those two?
I've never met a Zoroastrian and I'd bet you haven't either.
Buddhism in the experience of any Anglophone is likely to be pleasant metaphysical nothings.
Judaism is more often the target of hatred than its source, and while that balance swings precipitously for Orthodox communities, they're few and far between.
The simple fact of the matter is - Christianity is overwhelmingly what fucks with English-speaking nations 24/7, and Islam only sticks out for some extremely specific events. Do I need an on-record opinion of Mongol animistic faith and Bantu shamanic ritual before I'm allowed to talk shit about apostasy and Leviticus?
Do you ever find yourself in discussions about religion where the topics of discussion include Zoroaster?
You can criticize one bad thing without criticizing every other example of that bad thing. I don't need to go through the list of every Republican president just to talk about how bad Trump was. I don't need to go through the list of every serial killer to talk about how evil John Wayne Gacy was.
Christianity and Islam are the world's two biggest religions. Obviously, discussions about them will come up more than discussions about other religions in many parts of the world. "Yeah, but what about the Zoroastrians?" doesn't really make much headway in such discussions and isn't really relevant to them.
Covering the big three: Christianity, Islam, and Hinduism generally gets majority of the current worst offenders. But notes about the extremists version of Judaism, Buddhism, and other should be made too.
Do you often find yourself in "discussions about religion" where your primary contribution is to complain about Christianity and Islam?
I live in Denmark where Christianity is the biggest religion, so it's the one I have had shoved down my throat the most, which makes it the most obvious to criticize (because it's the one I know the most about). As many people know Denmark has been on the news a lot lately because of people burning books. This has been a major topic in the Danish media even before the story spread across the world, so it's been something I've debated on the regular the last couple of years as well. Those debates have mostly focused on the book burners though, and my criticism would be limited to something like "it's just a book". This is why I mentioned those two religions in my original post.
I don't know much about Zoroastrianism or Buddhism, so I wouldn't know what to criticize. The same pretty much goes for Judaism, though I guess I know a bit more about that religion, seeing as Christianity is mostly built upon the Jewish scriptures.
I think that the media is controlled by people that are extremely wealthy, not just bankers and that some of them being Jewish has nothing to do with it.
Discriminating and/or being mean to Muslims is not cool. Thinking their religion is fucking stupid is cool. Same goes for the other religions.
Religion is part of identity. You can't make fun of someone's religion without also making fun of them for being stupid enough to believe it.
Not to mention that the profoundly religious associate everything they do as acting in accordance with scripture. So by making a mockery of their faith, you are by extension the enemy of all that is good and just, and there's no difference in intent from their perspective.
That's why you can never try to reason with people who are religious. If they're going to interpret it that way anyways, may as well meet them at their level and accept the situation for what it is.
I don't think religious people are stupid per se for being religious, but I do think in most cases that they lost a crucial opportunity in childhood to form independant opinions and rational thought.
You make some good points though re trying to reason with religious people. Aside from the deep, deep lifelong programming... there's a little voice in the back of their mind that must be silenced, because it would be incredibly damaging to their psyche to realise they've tied themselves & their lives to something false.
I don't disagree with any of that. However, deconversion does happen past childhood in some cases, thankfully.
You can say the same about any ideology and conviction. But, it is clearly false. Questioning dogmas is nearly the ONLY way to put people into rational path. Yes, most of them refuse, but some of them will. There are a lot of people who got helped by others questioning their dogmas. You also will help yourself when you question yours.
I mean, that’s certainly not exclusive to religion. If you can’t reason with anybody who identifies as part of group there’s really not a lot of people left.
Not all bigotry is racist. I don't think mocking Islam is bigoted, but holy fuck can it be sometimes.
Its like the saying "I couldn't give you a dictionary definition of porn but I know it when I see it"
I couldn't explain to you what the differences between one asshole making fun of Islam and a racist doing it but I sure as shit know it when I see it
Seems straightforward: don't talk shit about all Muslims and pretend it's criticism of Islam. If you're railing against specific dogma, go wild. If you're insisting all seven hundred million believers must fanatically share that dogma, fuck off. Divisions within the faith are kind of contentious. Projecting third-hand knowledge of al-Shawarma militants onto Ali Patel from accounting is naked prejudice.
That goes double if you're just muttering about "Islamism" because Al wears a turban.
I think you cross the line ~~once~~ when it's not critical and just spiteful.
Singling out can be a form of xenophobia, in this case with the religion part simply being an excuse for it. You know, the way dogwhistles work. You don't betray the prejudiced part, you say something which technically you can argue for. Playing innocent saves the day again.
When people make something stupid their identity, and I call the stupid thing stupid, and they feel offended, that is not on me.
Thinking Islam is a race is racist.
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