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Living conditions subpar in a country fighting of a brutal invasion & genocide?
Get the fuck outta here.
In early August, deputies of the Ukraine president's 'Servant of the People' party in the national legislature ('Rada') introduced a bill that provides for the conscription of forced labor of all those who have not been conscripted to the armed forces. Formally free citizens who already cannot legally leave the country due to wartime restrictions will now also be subjected to forced labor.
This was really inevitable, yeah.
I don't think that you fully understand what's happening. This is not Call of Duty. Leave any internal political issues until the end of the war. Right now, you're helping Russia.
Leave any internal political issues until the end of the war
and how do you imagine they'll do that exactly? how are they even to begin resolving their political issues when all leftwing parties have been banned, unions are severely restricted, and strikes and protests have been made illegal? even if the allow for free elections again, any post-war government will have to act adhere to the neoliberal repayment programs of the IMF and other foreign actors, meaning further wage cuts, more austerity, more privatization
Good points, but what's the alternative? At least Ukraine has a chance to even have internal politics after the war.
So are we just supposed to allow (heck, even support!) Ukraine despite them implementing a system of modern slavery for their people, blocking civilians from fleeing, and forced conscription, some of it even slated to last even beyond the end of the war, because to even criticise it is "helping Russia"? Helping Russia do what, exactly? Look better than Ukraine? That's on Ukraine to be the big boy.
This is not Call of Duty, a war is waged for political reasons, and therefore the politics of it should be laid bare.
They are not implementing a system of modern slavery, they're protecting their country and fighting for their lives.
I'm quoting again:
The new draft law on the mobilization of workers is intended to "ensure the functioning of the national economy under martial law", in the words of those drafting the law. It is noteworthy that in early August, Ukraine began to talk about a likely ban against military conscripts leaving the country for three years following an eventual end to military hostilities and martial law. Just such a proposal was recently made by Vadym Denysenko [...], head of the Ukrainian Institute for the Future and a former advisor to the head of the Ukrainian Ministry of Internal Affairs. Denysenko said, "I am sure that even after the war it will be necessary to extend the ban on men traveling abroad for at least another three years. Otherwise, we simply will not survive as a nation."
Please illuminate me in your wisdom, how banning people from leaving while conscripting them to either fight in the front or forced labour is not a form slavery. Whose lives are being saved by arresting people trying to flee the country?
Don't you get it? People come and go, they live and die but what lasts is lines on maps. The lines on the map are the only thing that matters. If Russia moves the line on the map into Ukraine to cover people that want to live in Russia whats to stop them from moving other lines into other nations where people who speak Russian feel persecuted by their government and nazis?
People over here sound so much like CK2 players that I get flashbacks to the thrashfire Pagan Fury dlc soundtrack. "You don't understand, they're fighting a genocide! Which is why we must conscript and self-genocide the entirety of Ukraine to prevent the separatist half of Ukraine from being genocided by their allies!"
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Jesus, you sound psychotic. borderline nationalist. people being forced into slavery for the sake of their countey? for the sake of the donbas? really? would you be a slave for lines on a map?
like, seriously. jews in the Holocaust did hard labor for Germany's lines on the map. is that justified? to save germany from the allies? what is wrong with you?
You're correct but you might wanna check your sarcasm detector lol
holy hell, thank god that was satire. when i saw this post i was just staring open mouthed at my monitor, stunned at how insensitive someone could be. lmao, im pretty dumb for that
This war is a result of Ukraine's internal political issues, namely it's insistence on claims to territories that don't want to be a part of Ukraine.
Ha, a throwback to my childhood.
"If we don't send thoughtlessy load more people and munitions into the meat grinder right this minute, then the terrorists win!"
Ukraine has never asked to send people. You have no idea what's happening and why, do you?
Lol we've have a news megathread every day since the SMO started full of military, economic, historical and sociological analysis regarding every new develpoment in the region. You should stop in sometime, you might learn something.
Like how the US and it's vassals are shoving Ukranians into the meat grinder by torpedoing every round of negotiations while buying up Ukranian land and assets at rock bottom prices. But hey, I don't expect you forced conscription and cluster bomb enthusiasts to be well-versed in any situation when it's so much easier to just vibe out and cheer for Our Team.
He WANTS to help Russia... Don't feed the troll.
All the liberal scumbags downvoting. Imagine being the kind of piece of shit that cheers on a war and then doesn't even want to look at what the result of that war is on the people of the country. All of you are the definition of human garbage.
Wow no way so these guys
Didn't have their people's best interests at heart?? Do you even know how much like Putler you sound???
I know multiple Ukrainian men who are trying to leave or have already left. No sane person wants to stay in that shell of a country, and lose a leg to a Russian mine.
Western liberals, please ship yourself over there and die already. We don't need your Nazi apologies.
We did it Patrick etc, etc
Lemme just summarize the comment section for anybody else who comes along.
Russian apologist: Ukraine bad.
Replies: No. Unprovoked war makes things bad.
We don't need to know what "bad" means, right? Ukraine is bad due to some magical inherent property, not because of instituting drafts and migration bans, right? I am of the position that the war (which wasn't necessarily unprovoked to begin) wasn't the main cause of those things I am criticising, the government proposing those is the one at fault. I think that framing is at least a bit more complete than just "Ukraine bad."
And never mind calling critical people Russian apologists, like one can't hold critical views of both sides of a conflict.
Would you conscript people to fight in a revolution against the bourgeoisie?
It's a fair question to ask. Any time civil liberties are curtailed, there should be questioning. There should be coverage.
But in a case of a smaller country being invaded by a world power, their options might just be use every tool available or accept losing their sovereignty because a more powerful nation wants their land. And we also need to acknowledge that and say it out loud. If you don't think the war and loss of civil rights is worth protecting their sovereignty and the right to be a country, admit that up front. That it sucks, but that you think the benefits outweigh the costs.
My one question would be, was there a vote to fight a defensive war when Ukraine was invaded? Is that something invaded countries even do? I'm honestly asking the question. Because if there was a fair and free vote, and the majority voted to defend their land, then it seems like they're fine with it.
AFAIK there was no such vote, but even if there was it would not have counted the separatist regions of Donbas. That's the main issue with this war, it was already ongoing in some form long before Russia invaded last year, going on since around 2014. Since the invasion, the government has also declared there will be no elections and started banning or even arresting the opposition (like the communist party).
The situation of democracy in Ukraine right now is incredibly shaky at best, which is why a lot of people (like me) criticise the government a lot. I understand that it'd be hard to have a referendum on the initial marshal law, but banning all adult men from even emigrating, and sometimes sending those who try to escape anyway back to the front, is to me a serious abuse by the government. IIRC During the start of the war, they also relied a lot on volunteers for the military, but now they've turned a lot to drafting civilians, which doesn't bode well for how many people actually want to fight. But it's really hard to get proper statistical data from Ukraine due to the aforementioned marshal law.
Being in the military reserve myself against my will, I deeply believe that nobody should be forced into military service. Not only does it sound really inefficient to have uninterested personnel, but it also is a gigantic breach on a person's rights and can mentally and physically scar them for life, not to mention the risk of death.