I, for one, would hugely favour the inclusion of difficulty settings in FS games, but it's still a funny meme : sekiro

[-] yesman@lemmy.world 20 points 7 months ago

Sekiro is the only From Soft game that doesn't already have difficulty "modes". All the other games, you can just grind until your OP, or bring a summon. This is actually superior to the approach to difficulty in many games who lazily just scale damage and health. Sekiro has a better argument for difficulty modes than Dark Souls and Elden Ring.

FromSoft is moving in this direction. Sekiro has a few accessibility options: controller/keyboard remapping and subtitles. Elden Ring adds to this formula with colorblind filters. They could do much better.

I can't understand why people are so upset about how someone else plays the game. Just seems like a continuation of the "get gud" gatekeeping crap. It's kinda ironic because of how the game mechanics of From Soft games encourage and expect player collaboration. I mean even if you've never used a summon, I'll bet you didn't find the Dark Souls DLC area without a helping hand.

Every game is improved by more people enjoying it.

[-] tan00k@lemmy.world 5 points 7 months ago

I can see complaining about it if the game's design is affected by the changes. For example, the addition of compass/map markers greatly affects quest design.

It's also why imo some of elden ring's bosses suck if you try to solo them - they're designed with summons, spirits, and overleveling in consideration.

On the flipside it seems like the boss design in sekiro gets a lot of praise. I'm playing through sekiro now and don't have an opinion on it yet (though the combat does feel very good so far).

I'm not a git gud person (I'm quite the noob at souls games) though, and I hope they continue to make their games more accessible. But I understand how veteran fans of their games might be concerned about changes that may affect how they like to play.

[-] v4ld1z@lemmy.zip 4 points 7 months ago

Agree 1000%. Very well put

[-] Squirrel@thelemmy.club 1 points 7 months ago

Yeah, Sekiro made me realize that I do, indeed, suck. I'm fine with Dark Souls and Elden Ring.

[-] Manos@lemm.ee 12 points 7 months ago

Not every game has to be made for everyone. If it's too hard, or you don't want to make the adjustments to learn the game, just skip it.

[-] v4ld1z@lemmy.zip 12 points 7 months ago

In my books, adding difficulty settings to the game does not take away from my gaming experience. It does, however, make the game more approachable to people who want a more laid-back experience. Not even touching on people with disabilities for whom this would make FS games more accessible as well.

[-] tacosanonymous@lemm.ee 4 points 7 months ago

I try my best then cheat if necessary. I like the world of Elden Ring but I can’t get better at the gameplay. I get punished enough IRL.

[-] Yaztromo@lemmy.world 6 points 7 months ago

And that’s what many people (myself included) have done — but honestly, it wouldn’t take anything away from anyone nor detract from the game, and certainly wouldn’t be difficult to implement if they just put some very basic skill settings in there to make their games more accessible.

[-] starman2112@sh.itjust.works 8 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

It's what I do, and it fuckin sucks. I'm deeply interested in Dark Souls/Bloodborne/Sekiro/Elden Ring/Remnant as stories, but the fact that I would need to spend hundreds of hours getting good at the game (assuming I even can expend that mental effort in the few hours I have to play video games after getting home from work) keeps me from playing them. Wouldn't cost these companies anything to put in "I have a fuckin life" settings.

Remnant pisses me off the most, because it has "difficulty" settings, and it's still impossible for me to play solo on the easiest one. No adult, no matter their skill level, should have to open a game up to online multiplayer so that someone else can come beat a boss for them in the easiest available difficulty, and yet I've had to do that with virtually every one. Waste of $30.

[-] Yaztromo@lemmy.world 6 points 7 months ago

Yup — I’ve been gaming since the Coleco Telstar. It’s not that I can’t “git gud”, it’s that I have a life and responsibilities outside videogames. When you work full time, have volunteer responsibilities, and a wife and children at home you don’t have hours a day to “git gud” — you’re lucky if you have hours a week to sit down and enjoy a game in peace.

And I can’t do that with FromSoftware’s games, because they make them inaccessible to people like me. I know they’re laughing all the way to the bank — but they could be laughing even harder if they didn’t limit their (admittedly already huge) market.

But From apparently doesn’t want people like me as a customer — and so I’m not. Their loss — I’d likely play some of their games if they made them so I could kick back and enjoy them, but I admittedly already have a bit of a backlog due to limited playing hours so my gaming life is just fine without them.

(If anyone has an hour, ask me sometime how much I hated Bloodbourne with the passion of 10 000 dying suns).

[-] starman2112@sh.itjust.works 2 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

Ironically this is why I have thousands of hours in just a few games. Sometimes I'll get a bunch of time to play a game. Am I gonna spend that 12 hours fighting fucking Gorefist over and over and over and over and over again, before opening my game up to the internet, and having some random come beat him like I'm 9 years old handing the controller to my big brother? Hell no, I'm gonna continue my mission of landing a Kerbal on every rock in the kerbolar system. It may be just as repetitive, but the difference is a) I'm good at it, and b) I'm constantly working towards a goal in the game rather than bashing my head against a wall until my brains fall out.

Bloodborne was also frustrating. I played through most of it with my cousin who's extremely good at FS games, so he was able to basically walk me through the entire thing, right up to the Orphan of Kos. He wanted me to beat it. After all the time I had spent playing, all the enemies I learned how to parry with the gun, all the reflexes I trained, I couldn't take more than 10% of its health. Never beat it. Cousin got a new job. Never played Bloodborne again.

[-] Heavybell@lemmy.world 3 points 7 months ago

While this is true, the same logic would apply if they had an easy mode. "If the game on easy is no challenge, then leave it on the default difficulty." Just make it so you have to intentionally pick easy mode at the start and disallow changes on that run.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not so naive as to think adding an easy mode would be a free, no effort thing. It would absolutely add work for the devs. But I think, probably not that much. And a bunch more people would buy the game. It'd be totally worth it for them, I suspect.

[-] starman2112@sh.itjust.works 1 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

It would literally only improve people's enjoyment of the game but as long as it keeps Gamers' little egos intact, I guess it's best to block some players

[-] Kolli@sopuli.xyz -1 points 7 months ago

Gamers' little egos intact

Egos are important though. Feeling good about conquering challenge is not a bad thing or something to mock.

I guess it's best to block some players

I don't think they are blocked per se, they are blocking themselves by not putting in the work and improving.

We get to the saying: "Do not pray for easier life, pray to be stronger men."

[-] starman2112@sh.itjust.works 4 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

Edit: I wanna clarify that comment. I don't mean that it isn't good to feel good about conquering a challenge. I mean that it isn't good to think you're somehow more deserving of that feeling than someone who isn't as skilled as you are. The only defense against lowering difficulty barriers in these games that I've seen essentially boils down to "you don't deserve to enjoy the game if you aren't as good at it as I am."

I mean some people have legitimate skill ceilings. It's not just a matter of not putting in the work, it's a matter of not being capable of getting good at a game. I work physical labor ten hours a day. I cannot get good at bloodborne with the time I have to play every week. Even if I had the time, I do not have the mental capacity. Its difficulty quite literally blocks me from playing it, along with every other game of its ilk.

I'm sure someone will come along and say they work 12 hours of hard labor 6 days a week and still find time to play, but that person either a) was already good at FS games before they had that job, or b) has a different flavor of autism than I do.

[-] Kolli@sopuli.xyz 0 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

My point stands.

I shall give you another quote:

Life's tough when you voluntarily place yourself in the role of the victim and give away all your power.

However as you said, it's important for the game genre to maintain it's status as a difficult game that's feat to conquer and largely it's appeal. If taken away for those who are too time-constricted or don't have enough "mental capacity"(euphemism treadmill goes brrr), wouldn't it take away from those who don't have these problems?

Edit: cleanup

[-] starman2112@sh.itjust.works 4 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

Life's tough when you voluntarily place yourself in the role of the victim and give away all your power.

Ahh, that's a fascinating quote, super useful when you want to feel superior to someone you don't know. Instead of empathizing with another person's capabilities, you can simply say they suck and that it's their fault!

No, it wouldn't take anything away from players who like the hardest difficulty. Motherfuckers stack cups competitively, I'm sure FS fans can remain satisfied with their achievements if they beat the game on the hardest difficulty available. If anything, resisting the temptation to lower the difficulty should enhance the feeling of satisfaction after beating it.

"Euphemism treadmill?" I'm fucking tired after work. I lack the ""mental capacity"" to bash my head against a wall for another few hours. It becomes impossible to properly learn how to play a game when it gets frustrating. I guess I could simply stop getting frustrated by it, in the same way I could simply stop having symptoms of depression or autism.

ETA: I googled that quote, and it seems like it's only been spoken by one other person (I'm guessing one of your alts), also in the context of minimizing someone's mental condition. Let me phrase it like this: dying to the same enemy in a video game dozens of times in a row without seeing any amount of improvement in my own ability makes it difficult to justify continuing to play a game. If I'm not getting better by then, I certainly won't get better when I'm angry at the game. I'm not placing myself in the role of the victim, I'm recognizing my own abilities and lack thereof. I'm frustrated both by those abilities that I'm incapable of improving (as proven by the fact that they simply don't improve), as well as with the developers for not accommodating people like me, who are incapable of playing their games because we cannot improve our skills at them.

It's totally fine if you want to say that people with ADHD or autism or depression should simply stop acting like those are real things with real affects on people's abilities, but all it does it betray a lack of your own understanding of other people's mental conditions.

[-] v4ld1z@lemmy.zip 4 points 7 months ago

I feel so much for you, dude. Honestly sucks that people who can't, for physical, psychological or other reasons, put in the time to grind the game get left out simply because the developers don't want to accommodate. I read all your replies and sympathise a lot.

[-] Kolli@sopuli.xyz 1 points 7 months ago

I'm sorry, I'm poor at explaining my opinions in my second language and thus it seems I can't convey my point.

However, I see your point and I do have different opinion on it. It seems we can't find common ground on the question on whether you are capable of improving to the point of beating mainstream game or not and if it should have an option for people who are too busy to learn the necessary skills.

I googled that quote, and it seems like it's only been spoken by one other person (I'm guessing one of your alts)

I also looked it up and it has wiki definition and blog article at least. Also I don't have alts, not me.

It's totally fine if you want to say that people with ADHD or autism or depression should simply stop acting like those are real things with real affects on people's abilities

Wouldn't claim that as I happen to have first hand experience. I won't elaborate under this nick, add me on Matrix if you wish to discuss more.

Good talk, gained exp, have a good one.

[-] teft@lemmy.world 6 points 7 months ago

Sounds like the author needs to git gud.

[-] anyhow2503@lemmy.world 4 points 7 months ago

There are many accessibility concerns that would very much affect the game design, difficulty scaling or the general feel of the game. Saying "it doesn't affect you" or "it literally costs them nothing to add" is utter horseshit. There's probably an argument to be made that the games could be made more accessible in ways that wouldn't affect the enjoyment of fans of this particular flavor of games, but this comment section seems to offer very little compromise between "git gud" and some poorly thought out Bethesda style "difficulty" adjustment.

[-] v4ld1z@lemmy.zip 3 points 7 months ago

Do you have examples how that would affect game design, difficulty scaling and the general feel of the game? I don't see it personally

[-] starman2112@sh.itjust.works 3 points 7 months ago

For those who want that challenge, playing on a harder difficulty would still provide it. It literally wouldn't take anything away from you. Has anyone actually asked what we actually want, or do you just assume we want to give ourselves infinite health and damage? For some bosses, Bethesda style damage scaling would be a welcome addition. Bosses taking a longass time to kill doesn't make the game any better, it just filters out people who don't have hours to grind through a single enemy.

It could be implemented the same way Mortal Kombat tends to do it, where the more often you die to an enemy, the less often that enemy attacks. Turning off that kind of adaptive difficulty could still give players like you the high you get from beating a boss after 12 hours of attempts, while allowing those of us who actually care about the story to move on after dying a few dozen times.

It could incorporate multiplayer the same way Dying Light did, where you're able to play co-op without being invaded unless you want to be invaded. If you worry that nobody would ever turn on invasions, ask yourself why that is. Is it possible that most players don't actually enjoy that aspect of the game?

[-] Splatterphace@lemm.ee 2 points 7 months ago

Every Soulsborne game gets this request 😂

[-] starman2112@sh.itjust.works 6 points 7 months ago

Imagine if they actually did and more people were able to get into these games

[-] Potatos_are_not_friends@lemmy.world 2 points 7 months ago

I think Elden Ring was their answer. It's way more approachable than prior games. You can absolutely skip areas to explore the rest of the massive world and overlevel. I did that frequently. Then after 50+ hours, finally took on those harder challenges. And if I gave up, I still had a lot of gameplay.

Unlike in Sekiro where you're definitely bottlenecked and can't make progress until you beat the boss.

[-] Splatterphace@lemm.ee -2 points 7 months ago

That goes against the nature of the genre, and Elden Ring sold like hotcakes.

[-] starman2112@sh.itjust.works 3 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

Does it go against the nature of the genre? Like, these games are well known for being for being excessively difficult, but I don't think it would negatively affect them if some players were given the option to reduce that from "excessive" to "very." It being a widely accepted aspect doesn't make it a core part of the genre. The atmosphere, worldbuilding, and gameplay are what makes the genre, not the fact that people with jobs can't play them. For as well as Elden Ring sold, I cannot imagine it would have sold less if more people were able to play it.

[-] Splatterphace@lemm.ee 0 points 7 months ago

Not every game needs to appeal to every person

[-] starman2112@sh.itjust.works 3 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

And I'm not saying that they should. I'm not terribly interested in Forza, and I wouldn't ask them to include RPG elements or a deeper story to make me interested. All I'm asking is for accessibility for those of us that the games do appeal to, but are not able to play due to the difficulty. We've been asking for easy modes since Dark Souls 1 because the games appeal to us.

Like, Remnant doesn't piss me off so much because I don't like the gameplay or story, it pisses me off because I love the gameplay and story, and am not allowed to experience it because the boss fights on the easiest difficulty have about 10 times more health and 100 times more adds than I'm capable of dealing with.

[-] Umbrias@beehaw.org 2 points 7 months ago

Being against inclusive difficulty settings on principle speaks to a self worth derived from exclusion rather than mastery.

[-] dangblingus@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 7 months ago

Mario doesnt have lighter difficulty modes because thats the intended way to experience the game. Shmups dont have lighter difficulty modes because they are meant to be difficult but still, no one complains.

FS games are memes and everyone wants to play the popular meme games, but they are intended to bw difficult as a core game mechanic.

[-] ryven@lemmy.dbzer0.com 13 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

New Mario does have difficulty modes, via character selection. In Super Mario Wonder, Yoshis don't get hurt when taking damage, they just get knocked back, and Nabbit doesn't take damage or get knocked back.

Some shmups do have difficulty modes, too; one of the first serious shmups I played was the sixth official Touhou game, Embodiment of Scarlet Devil, which has 4 difficulty modes.

[-] starman2112@sh.itjust.works 6 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

Yeah because we all know the intended way to play a game is the only right way to play it

Hey also Mario absolutely has lighter difficulty options

[-] anyhow2503@lemmy.world 1 points 7 months ago

Nearly every reasonably complex game has ways to make it easier (or harder) besides explicit difficulty adjustment via menu, including FromSoftware games. This applies especially to games that include RPG-style character level or gear improvement.

[-] starman2112@sh.itjust.works 2 points 7 months ago

If a game's answer to making it easier is to simply spend a few dozen hours replaying the same level over and over and over again so you can grind out a higher level, then that's exactly the kind of game that needs to have easier difficulty settings.

[-] Potatos_are_not_friends@lemmy.world 3 points 7 months ago

Mario does have settings/features to make the game easier. That's been a core Nintendo thing for Mario for years... Make it anti-frustrating.

[-] TropicalDingdong@lemmy.world -1 points 7 months ago

"respect"

[-] Atomic@sh.itjust.works -3 points 7 months ago

Just install a mod where you can't take damage and go nuts then if that's what you want.

Sekiro really isn't THAT difficult. Just stop button mashing and pay attention to what your enemy is doing.

If that's too difficult. Then the game Just isn't for you. You are not their audience. And they're fine with that.

[-] v4ld1z@lemmy.zip 5 points 7 months ago

First, there are console players out there who can't mod their games. Plus, outright removing damage isn't the same as tuning the numbers to your liking lol

Second, I platinumed the game and played through it multiple times with the Demon Bell rung and without Kuro's Blessing. I do like the challenge and I liked the game being difficult. Just because you and I did, however, doesn't mean that others do. You're not impacted whatsoever if FS decides to add difficulty sliders: everyone has their own separate experience playing the game.

Third, yea, I get that sentiment and I was of that opinion for some time too. But as mentioned above, you do not lose anything from being offered multiple difficulties. It's never a bad thing to be offered multiple options in anything in life - makes it easier to decide what you want. It makes the games more accessible.

Not trying to win you over - just a few points to consider

[-] Atomic@sh.itjust.works 1 points 7 months ago

It's just not what THEY want to do. That's not their art.

All games are not for everyone. Just like all music isn't for everyone.