this post was submitted on 17 Oct 2026
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This whole time I’ve been thinking that when people say something like “consciousness arises from matter but then can impact matter,” that they were referring to subjective experience, the internal world or qualia or whichever term. This made no sense to me because I don’t see how the experience of consciousness can affect matter. The more I read through this textbook on DM though, the more it seems like they might mean consciousness as in an intellectual understanding of existence and the environment, is that right? I wish they clarified what they meant by consciousness more in this book.

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[–] woodenghost@hexbear.net 6 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago)

I have Luna Nguyen's book too. It's the first thing you said and that includes the second. They speak about consciousness in the classical, narrow, individual, sense in the beginning and transition to a broader meaning later. This makes sense, as they move to a different level of abstraction and explain how consciousness is situated in and arises from a material world and society.

Narrow start: p. 64:

Consciousness is an attribute of a highly organized form of matter, which is the brain. Consciousness is the function and the result of the neuropsychological activities of human brains. As human brains evolved and developed over time, their neuropsychological activities became richer, and, as the activities progressed, consciousness developed further and further over time.

This is the classical meaning of consciousness as an inner experience that reflects the world.

p. 79:

However consciousness does not perfectly reflect the objective world. It modified information through the subjective lenses (thoughts, feelings, aspirations, experiences knowledge, needs, etc.)

Here it gets a little broader.

p. 80:

Consciousness is a social phenomenon and has a social nature. Consciousness arose from real life activities. Consciousness is always ruled by natural law and social law.

That's broader still, but it logically follows from the first material definition.

You say

I don’t see how the experience of consciousness can affect matter.

The answer is on page 88:

The relationship between matter and consciousness is dialectical. In this relationship, matter comes first, and matter is the source of consciousness; it decides consciousness. However, consciousness is not totally passive, it can impact back to matter through the practical activities of human beings.

(Emphasis mine) That's an even broader level of abstraction, the dialectic is revealed.

Later in part 1 they explain the difference between ordinary and scientific consciousness which is a narrower application of the earlier term that leans more into the second definition you gave. But it arises from the earlier one.

And in part 2 they explain how you get class consciousness from that.

(I said Luna Nguyen's book, but really it's a work of many authors. Luna contributed the translation, annotation and illustration)

[–] Keld@hexbear.net 6 points 5 days ago (1 children)

which book are you talking about

[–] kugupu@hexbear.net 6 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Part 1 of Luna Oi’s translation of the curriculum of the basic principles of marxism-leninism

[–] TraschcanOfIdeology@hexbear.net 7 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Since it's a basic text I think it's safe to assume they mean a more colloquial use of the word, as in, human cognition. I wouldn't expect a book that isn't a Marxist text on phenomenology to try and be more specific.

[–] woodenghost@hexbear.net 4 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (1 children)

I wouldn't underestimate that book. It's compact, but it's meant to support university students who specialize in Marxist-Leninism. Some ambiguity might arise from translation and because those vietnamese students would already be familiar with the basic concepts unlike western readers, but that's why Luna Nguyen supplies really extensive translators notes and illustrations (almost half of the book).

[–] TraschcanOfIdeology@hexbear.net 3 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago)

My intention wasn't to underestimate the book, I've gone through it (not as thoroughly as I should've) and it is a very comprehensive and well written piece of theory. As you mentioned, translation artifacts and selecting certain terms over others is always going to lead to the text changing, to the point that many people usually recommend to read one translation over another because they're not seen as interchangeable, even if the original text is always the same. I just went over the digital copy of the book and the translation notes and footnotes are everywhere, which shows real work and care was put into translating the text.

That being said, OP's question felt more like something that should be addressed by a more specific text, one that concerns itself with explaining at length what the concept of consciousness is within a Marxist phenomenology, why it is so and what are the implications of this in the context of diamat or revolutionary politics. This by itself could be one or a series of books.

It's not that the textbook isn't good or complete, it's that it doesn't concern itself with defining every single philosophical term in it because it's not its purpose

[–] g_mer@hexbear.net 3 points 5 days ago

That’s my understanding. Consciousness is the world of ideas. E.g. an AI CEO reads AI cult articles and then converts those ideas into the material reality of data centers.

[–] imogen_underscore@hexbear.net 2 points 5 days ago

i'm not sure if it directly answers your question, but i've been reading The German Ideology and it is quite illuminating around this in the early sections.

long


Only now, after having considered four moments, four aspects of the primary historical relationships, do we find that man also possesses “consciousness,” but, even so, not inherent, not “pure” consciousness. From the start the “spirit” is afflicted with the curse of being “burdened” with matter, which here makes its appearance in the form of agitated layers of air, sounds, in short, of language. Language is as old as consciousness, language is practical consciousness that exists also for other men,[A] and for that reason alone it really exists for me personally as well; language, like consciousness, only arises from the need, the necessity, of intercourse with other men. Where there exists a relationship, it exists for me: the animal does not enter into “relations” with anything, it does not enter into any relation at all. For the animal, its relation to others does not exist as a relation. Consciousness is, therefore, from the very beginning a social product, and remains so as long as men exist at all. Consciousness is at first, of course, merely consciousness concerning the immediate sensuous environment and consciousness of the limited connection with other persons and things outside the individual who is growing self-conscious. At the same time it is consciousness of nature, which first appears to men as a completely alien, all-powerful and unassailable force, with which men’s relations are purely animal and by which they are overawed like beasts; it is thus a purely animal consciousness of nature (natural religion) just because nature is as yet hardly modified historically. (We see here immediately: this natural religion or this particular relation of men to nature is determined by the form of society and vice versa. Here, as everywhere, the identity of nature and man appears in such a way that the restricted relation of men to nature determines their restricted relation to one another, and their restricted relation to one another determines men’s restricted relation to nature.) On the other hand, man’s consciousness of the necessity of associating with the individuals around him is the beginning of the consciousness that he is living in society at all. This beginning is as animal as social life itself at this stage. It is mere herd-consciousness, and at this point man is only distinguished from sheep by the fact that with him consciousness takes the place of instinct or that his instinct is a conscious one. This sheep-like or tribal consciousness receives its further development and extension through increased productivity, the increase of needs, and, what is fundamental to both of these, the increase of population. With these there develops the division of labour, which was originally nothing but the division of labour in the sexual act, then that division of labour which develops spontaneously or “naturally” by virtue of natural predisposition (e.g. physical strength), needs, accidents, etc. etc. Division of labour only becomes truly such from the moment when a division of material and mental labour appears. (The first form of ideologists, priests, is concurrent.) From this moment onwards consciousness can really flatter itself that it is something other than consciousness of existing practice, that it really represents something without representing something real; from now on consciousness is in a position to emancipate itself from the world and to proceed to the formation of “pure” theory, theology, philosophy, ethics, etc. But even if this theory, theology, philosophy, ethics, etc. comes into contradiction with the existing relations, this can only occur because existing social relations have come into contradiction with existing forces of production; this, moreover, can also occur in a particular national sphere of relations through the appearance of the contradiction, not within the national orbit, but between this national consciousness and the practice of other nations, i.e. between the national and the general consciousness of a nation (as we see it now in Germany).

Moreover, it is quite immaterial what consciousness starts to do on its own: out of all such muck we get only the one inference that these three moments, the forces of production, the state of society, and consciousness, can and must come into contradiction with one another, because the division of labour implies the possibility, nay the fact that intellectual and material activity – enjoyment and labour, production and consumption – devolve on different individuals, and that the only possibility of their not coming into contradiction lies in the negation in its turn of the division of labour. It is self-evident, moreover, that “spectres,” “bonds,” “the higher being,” “concept,” “scruple,” are merely the idealistic, spiritual expression, the conception apparently of the isolated individual, the image of very empirical fetters and limitations, within which the mode of production of life and the form of intercourse coupled with it move.