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submitted 1 year ago by Peaces@infosec.pub to c/politics@beehaw.org

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[-] Roundcat@kbin.social 34 points 1 year ago

About a decade ago, me and my family were part of the very movement that changed the Republican party into the beast it is today. We made it very clear to party members that moderates would not be tolerated. We demonized the RINOs as much as we demonized the Democrats, the Liberals and the Obamas. By primary season of 2016, the last influences of the old Republican party were stamped out. Trump was the achievement of the Tea Party, and how it flipped the neo liberal conservative party into a fascist one.

Blame the Democrats all you want for being milquetoast, weak, or ineffective in the face of the Republican party. As someone who has played for both teams, I have never seen the same fire from Democratic voters to change their party as I have from the Republicans. There is no party wide effort to weed out Democrats who work in the interests of companies only, or are essentially Republicans with the Democrat label. There has been no unified direction for the future Democrats want to see for the US other than the current status quo.

What we did in the Tea Party, is we got involved at every stage of government. We found out who our state and federal legislators were, and if they did not stand with our views, we primaried them out. We took trips to Washington as a church, or as a young Republican's association, and we rallied in front of every monument that they would allow us in front of. In our eyes, our goal was righteous, and we were in a battle for the soul of the country.

I abhor everything I was back then, and feel guilty for the present we have created today. But if there is one take away from my time in the Tea Party that I think could apply to Democrats is you don't have to settle for less. By all means vote for Biden again, but you should make it clear to every Democrat defending their seat next year that you won't be settling for spineless enablers. Now's the time to start campaigning progressive candidates to run against them. Any progressive you get elected should be seen as a victory, and every neo liberal who loses should take it as a message that they are no longer electable. You should practice that democracy as much as you can while you still have it.

[-] TheRtRevKaiser@beehaw.org 29 points 1 year ago

Just a reminder to everyone in the comments to be kind. Folks feel very strongly about this subject, and for very good reasons, but we can have empathy and compassion for one another even while disagreeing. Please remember that you are interacting with other humans here.

[-] dingus@lemmy.ml 26 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Democrats need to offer a hell of a lot more than "we're not actively trying to kill you like the Republicans" if they want that.

That continues to be the majority of the way they claim distinction from their Republican peers. They're riding this gravy train, and they don't want it to stop. People like Nancy Pelosi are way more concerned with feckless public displays like kneeling while wearing kente cloths instead of actual legislation to reign in out-of-control abusive and violent policing. They're way more concerned with the money they've made from this charade than actually serving the American people.

They have to offer a hell of a lot more than "We're not Republicans" if they want us doing more than just voting for Biden to make sure Trump doesn't become President once more. That's not a choice, that's a hostage situation.

[-] SkepticalButOpenMinded@lemmy.ca 19 points 1 year ago

Biden has objectively had one of the most progressive and active policy agendas in a generation. Even with his failed policies like student loan forgiveness, as soon as it was overturned by SCOTUS, he wasted no time and immediately proposed another way to do it. Given that Dems don’t control congress, this has been an amazingly productive term.

In fact, Bernie Sanders said of Biden, “I think he is a much more progressive president than he was a United States senator.” Sanders credits the progressive task forces that they did together while campaigning.

I agree that Dems need to offer more. But I also think the left eats itself. There are two kinds of low information voters. One kind adores their leaders unthinkingly. But the other kind refuses to give credit when it’s due.

[-] AfricanExpansionist@lemmy.ml 11 points 1 year ago

The duopoly is just a game of Good Cop, Bad Cop

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[-] Jaysyn@kbin.social 20 points 1 year ago

I vote (D) because the other option under our FPtP system is fascism.

[-] tonytins@pawb.social 16 points 1 year ago

So, basically, "you're not doing enough for your party!" Gee, thanks for the encouragement.

[-] housepanther@lemmy.goblackcat.com 15 points 1 year ago

Why, when I am an anarcho-communist, should I work hard to support the neoliberal candidate? I am not lifting a goddamned finger for Joseph R. Biden Jr other than unwillingly casting my vote for him if need be.

[-] drewsipher@lemmy.ml 11 points 1 year ago

I think part of it though is if you at least talk about being willing to vote for him due to the dangers of the current GOP you may sway other communists/socialists who would vote third party to vote for Biden by seeing the good in at least protecting from the current social Neo-conservatism within the GOP.

[-] dingus@lemmy.ml 13 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

It's not even about seeing the good, it's about understanding the real, serious harm the GOP wants to inflict on much of the voting populace. They want to violently beat and disappear people who disagree with them.

And therein lies the problem, because the Democrats are leaning hard on how absolutely vile the GOP is, and continue to act as though they don't have to offer anything because all they have to offer is "we're not literally destroying lives and setting people up to be killed by violence or systemic abuse" (which is also arguable because they are also not doing a lot to stop these things). So they don't see themselves needing to try harder for the American people, because all they have to do is be like "We're not as bad as the other guys!" Because the Democrats are fascism-lite, they don't actually want to solve problems with policing or having a two-tiered justice system or tax the people who fund them.

Leftists are keenly aware of the danger, and they're pretty sick of being expected to vote for people they loathe to "save" the country from itself. Why is it our job instead of Democrats job to fucking do better and fight harder? We'll do it because it's better than straight fascism, but asking us to pat some dim motherfuckers on the back because they couldn't be fucked to fight fascism themselves and wanted us to do it at the ballot box is some straight bullshit.

[-] Semi-Hemi-Demigod@kbin.social 9 points 1 year ago

Republicans at least have a vision they can describe to people. It's a racist, sexist, homophobic vision, but it's at least a vision they can get their base to support.

Democrats don't seem to have any plans beyond keeping the status quo. However, since most people don't like the status quo it's really hard to get them excited to vote for Democrats. So they have to resort to fearing the Republicans.

[-] Hairyblue@kbin.social 4 points 1 year ago

The fear is real.

Democrats do use the government to help people.

[-] TheRazorX@kbin.social 6 points 1 year ago

but asking us to pat some dim motherfuckers on the back because they couldn’t be fucked to fight fascism themselves and wanted us to do it at the ballot box is some straight bullshit.

Not only do that, but they actively BOOST fascism. They keep using the pied piper strategy over and over again. If they're that bad (and I'm not denying that they are), why in the world do they keep signal boosting those fucks?

Cause it makes for an easy election win cause they don't have to promise anything, just point to the contrast. I.E. they keep risking the fate of the entire world to win elections in a way that doesn't affect their corporate donors.

Just insane.

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I dislike Biden intensely. I meant what I said when I wouldn't lift a finger to help him other than vote for him. I sure as hell am not going to work to sway others in my circle to vote for him. That's entirely up to them and the conclusions they draw. It is going against my principles as it is to vote for someone that does not represent my best interests. It's worse that he doesn't even represent my best interests, he does everything counter to them.

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There are no viable 3rd party candidates thus far. If one does happen to pop up, I will at least entertain what they have to say and listen to them.

[-] BraveSirZaphod@kbin.social 7 points 1 year ago

other than unwillingly casting my vote for him if need be.

For whatever it's worth, as a gay guy with trans friends that have had to flee our home state because of GOP policies, that vote is more than enough for me. I'm more on the normie shit-lib side of online political discourse, but we do still have a lot more in common than with the GOP, and we can come together to work on common goals and prevent a lot of very real harm from happening. I know political progress is a lot slower than you (or I, for that matter) would want, but still, it is genuinely appreciated.

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[-] lemillionsocks@beehaw.org 13 points 1 year ago

On one hand I will be down the D line in the next election because I do understand that the alternative is things getting worse with the republican party and we can only hope two definitive losses can snap the party out of their current strategy and ease up.

On the OTHER hand I'll be honest I dont see the changes in the republican party happening anytime soon especially since it's been this way since reagan. Sure neolibs will clutch their pearls and talk about better days but while the rhetoric may be a little more transparent in some cases, the republicans havent changed all that much. Election fraud fear mongering was a bush era dog whistle, and theyve been chomping away at abortion, appointing conservative leaning judges, and trying to limit public education and programs for decades.

Meanwhile what has the status quo democratic party done about it? They pushed further right in the 90s in order to try to win away Reagan voters and then spent the next few decades as wimpy pro capitalist centrists. Gaining an inch while the right takes a foot and then wagging their finger over how they would never play so dirty. Just look at the last Obama era judge appointee.

They could have fought to make sure their neutral judge would make the bench. But oh no the norms we couldnt do that. Deep down they were so SURE that Clinton could never lose so they wanted to look like they were the grownups who upheld political norms and then get it done anyway. What wound up happening? The republicans repealed that block privilege once in power and pushed their appointments in without issue.

I cant blame people for becoming exhausted and feeling like "not being the republicans" is not enough to keep rewarding the Democrats for being weak. They abandoned the working class and unions in the 90s, they continued to push right and attack their progressive wing while trying to continue to court center right voters. Now that they let the republicans go wild the last 40 years theyre telling us "you better vote for us or DEMOCRACY IS AT STAKE! and our policy is the continue doing more of the same"

It's like if an owner of a dog spent years training it poorly and smacking it around is holding the leash tight as the dog starts barking and jumping towards you. You suggest maybe changing the owner of the dog, but they reply "well if Im not their owner anymore then Im going to let go of the leash and who knows what the dog will do while you wait for the dog catcher to come and get it"

[-] eric5949@lemmy.cloudaf.site 12 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Id settle for "stop pretending neoliberals are the same as fascists" but something tells me the "less progress than all the progress is worse than negative progress, I'm so smart" people aren't very likely to do that.

Edit: yeah so looking at some of the stuff under here....smh

[-] Chetzemoka@kbin.social 8 points 1 year ago

Seriously, it's such a naive stance to think that just because progress didn't arrive hand delivered to your doorstep gift-wrapped with a bow on top exactly the way you imagined, then it's not worth having. What a ridiculous idea. Progress is progress. Every little step brings us closer to the next step. Demanding perfection all at once is going to get us exactly nowhere.

Stop letting the perfect be the enemy of the good.

[-] Semi-Hemi-Demigod@kbin.social 7 points 1 year ago

I've been voting regularly for 20 years and I've yet to see real progress on issues I care about. I still vote because it makes for a good example of how our system of government is crap.

[-] Chetzemoka@kbin.social 10 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I've been voting regularly for 20 years and the ACA was a massive move in the correct direction...until Republicans gutted the individual mandate and refused federal funds for Medicaid expansion. It's always the Republicans ruining any semblance of progress that we make. I find Dems most guilty of trusting SCOTUS to do their jobs for them.

I want to see Dems again get a solid, undeniable majority in both chambers in 2024. Then push the priority passage of voting rights and anti-gerrymandering legislation. Those are concrete fixes to the system.

[-] Semi-Hemi-Demigod@kbin.social 8 points 1 year ago

Even with the ACA I'm too afraid to use my health insurance lest I go bankrupt. I fell and hit my head and the ER bill, even with "good" insurance, was over $3,000. I would have been better off if I set my nose and sealed the cut with super glue myself. I'm paying $600 a month for insurance I can't use without going bankrupt.

Health care is still broken after the ACA, and will continue to be broken until we get rid of the rent-seekers in the health care industry. But Democrats seem to like those folks so I guess I'll just buy my meds from Tractor Supply and invest in a good needle and thread.

[-] Chetzemoka@kbin.social 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

The ACA was only ever meant to be a first step. It was never intended to be the end goal. The Republicans gutting the individual mandate is what stole that momentum because it leaves simply being uninsured as an unfortunately viable financial option for enough people that it reduced pressure to reform the rest of the system.

The end goal is single payer. But it's difficult to the point of bordering on impossible to shift from what we had instantly into single payer in the third most populous country on the planet. It's estimated that single payer will put nearly 400,000 private insurance middle-people out of jobs. That's not a negligible problem. We're going to need a way to address that in the process of making the shift.

The ACA open markets have allowed me to leave jobs that I otherwise would not have been able to leave because I can't afford to go 30-90 days without health insurance. That open market didn't even exist when I was a young adult 20 years ago. Insurance gaps between jobs were simply a fact of life that a lot of people couldn't abide

[-] Semi-Hemi-Demigod@kbin.social 4 points 1 year ago

I am highly doubtful that the end goal is single payer.

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[-] Spitzspot@artemis.camp 10 points 1 year ago

Vote for the Most Progressive

[-] jabib@beehaw.org 13 points 1 year ago

Upvote. We should always vote for less bad.

[-] Gaywallet@beehaw.org 10 points 1 year ago

This is quickly devolving into fighting, locking this up.

[-] Chetzemoka@kbin.social 6 points 1 year ago

Republican obstructionism is worse than Democrat foot-dragging. Sorry, I know people get frustrated with the lack of progress, but one of those things is clearly a bigger problem than the other.

If a third party revolutionary candidate were actually viable and likely to provide even incremental improvement in the lives of real people, then I'd be on board. But it's not viable. Incremental progress is preferable to no progress or negative progress.

[-] dingus@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 year ago

Democrat foot dragging enables Republican obstructionism.

[-] Chetzemoka@kbin.social 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

The ACA, the infrastructure bill, the climate bill, getting sick days for rail workers without crashing the entire country

It's not perfect, but it is progress

It's the almost invisible boring little bureaucratic improvements that I actually find most exciting because they signal the real intent of the administration: https://prospect.org/labor/2023-08-07-biden-admin-labor-rule-davis-bacon/

[-] dingus@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

So, since you recognize the importance of tackling climate change, let's focus on that for a minute. Even with the climate bill, we are still looking at a bleak future.

This "don't let the perfect be the enemy of good" speil is literally enabling a worse, more drastically dangerous climate future. Period.

It will get worse if not addressed seriously and the band-aids Democrats are offering will not prevent that bleak, bad future.

Scientists have been saying as much for decades and we are still not even close to taking it seriously enough. So the climate bill and how far it falls short is actually a mark against them, imho.

If it won't prevent the worst climate catastrophes that could result in global mass extinction (already happening, arguably), then it isn't even close to enough and we will be leaving our children and grandchildren a horrible hollowed out husk of a planet.

This matters, and so acting like it is "letting perfect be the enemy of good" is flat out disingenuous.

People will die because of decades of inaction. Lives that didn't have to end that way. It is selling out the future of our species for so-called "stability" now.

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[-] darq@kbin.social 4 points 1 year ago

But a third party will likely never be viable in within the lifetimes of people alive today, unless the Democrats suddenly decide to overturn FPTP voting.

So understand what you are asking of people. People are more than "frustrated with the lack of progress", they are enraged because they recognise that the current system will NEVER deliver them real justice and dignity. That they will be faced with this exact same situation every single election. And you are asking them to be content living with their rights and well-being on a knife-edge, likely for the rest of their lives. Because while the Democrats won't give them justice, the alternative is fascism.

So you are correct, the Republicans are objectively worse, and people should vote for the most progressive viable candidates possible. But the neoliberal tendency to demand that leftists stop complaining while they give up everything in the name of "compromise", and then tendency to blame leftists for neoliberal losses anyway, is galling.

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this post was submitted on 07 Aug 2023
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