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FOSDEM 2026 - Multi-relay chat messaging & cryptographic identities with Delta Chat and Chatmail relays (fosdem.org)

submitted 4 days ago by Blaze@piefed.zip to c/privacy@programming.dev

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Also: https://blog.feld.me/posts/2025/03/deltachat-is-actually-good-though/

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[–] CoyoteFacts@piefed.ca 4 points 4 days ago (1 children)

(Not a crypto expert, not familiar with Delta Chat at all, vaguely familiar with SimpleX)

I kind of don't understand why this is being built on top of email at all. They say it's harder to block by nation-level actors, but how is something like SimpleX easier to block? They also needed to staple Iroh and its encryption implementation on as additional surface area in order to get regular chat capabilities because email transport doesn't support things like larger data or real-time communication (voice/video). I see a lot of ways that they have retrofitted email technology to fit parts of the task, but not really a compelling reason why we needed to use email technology as part of the solution? Is it really just the nation-level thing, and is that really only possible through using email?

Assuming SimpleX is resistant to government censorship in the same way that Delta Chat is (multiple dumb relays, no central identities, etc), what transport/encryption problems are being solved that something more purpose-built couldn't handle? Is Delta Chat more of a proof-of-concept that it's possible to get this far when starting with email (which, yes, congrats, it is impressive), or is it meant to be the last word in instant messaging? Given that it's not popular right now, I'm not sure if I'm compelled to switch to or support it over some other new bespoke technology that isn't starting with its hands tied behind its back?

[–] Blaze@piefed.zip 1 points 4 days ago (1 children)

Hello,

Did you have a look at the linked article?

https://blog.feld.me/posts/2025/03/deltachat-is-actually-good-though/

[–] CoyoteFacts@piefed.ca 1 points 4 days ago (1 children)

Yeah I did, I watched the talk and read the article before I posted. I understand that the article calls out several times "email is fine actually", but I'm not under any delusions that Delta Chat is using "traditional email", which is what the article spends the most time debunking. The article's points on stubbornly using email technology were "countries have a harder time blocking it" (which I mainly focused on) and "email servers are battle-tested". I'm not counting the second point as worth talking about since it's kind of dumb to imply that there's no possible way to have more efficient communication relays than pre-existing email servers, and they're already modifying those email servers to fit their own purposes anyway so that removes the "battle-tested" perk.

[–] Blaze@piefed.zip 4 points 4 days ago (1 children)

Alright, so from my personal experience (a bit like you, not an expert on Delta Chat or Simplex)

I tried Simplex recently, and I found the user experience a bit confusing. The chatrooms I was part of were quite verbose, and in one of those rooms people were mentioning the battery drain that simplex can create. I also wasn't able to connect to the SimpleX client on Linux for some reasons.

DeltaChat on the other hand is really newbie friendly. You just set your username, and they take care of the rest for you. You can still connect other devices, and even change servers without encryption getting in the way (imagine the opposite of the way Matrix does things)

I see your point about "why use email if you have to reengineer it anyway?", but if we look at other messenging alternatives:

XMPP also created it's own protocol, and now seems to be in a constant limbo of which clients and servers implements which extension
Matrix who created a very confusing experience for new joiners who don't want to deal with encryption keys on a regular basis

None of them was really convincing either even starting from scratch.

That being said, if you like SimpleX, then it's probably the best for you. I like Deltachat because it was easy to convert my family to it, something I never really managed to do with any of the other alternatives.

[–] CoyoteFacts@piefed.ca 4 points 4 days ago (1 children)

It makes sense to want to use Delta Chat because of the UX right now, but I'm just assuming the UX on all of these projects is bad in some way, and I'm assuming there are improvements to be made in other regards as well (Delta Chat is only recently trying to land Perfect Forward Secrecy, for example). I'm more concerned with looking at the future trajectories of these projects, as someone who has had to convert their friend group between solutions multiple times and is sick of projects that don't go anywhere or will get superseded by projects with better designs.

With that in mind, I'm mainly looking at the fundamentals of the implementation and if, given enough community support/money, all the UX issues could be solved eventually. Even projects like Matrix, which sucks for a few big reasons right now, could still be mostly fixed up with enough effort. My suspicion is that "fixing up" Delta Chat would realistically mean that they should move away from emails as part of their stack, unless there is some actual value-add from keeping it.

(For the record my friends and I are using Signal currently. I played around with SimpleX a long time ago but found the UX lacking for normies.)

[–] Blaze@piefed.zip 1 points 4 days ago

as someone who has had to convert their friend group between solutions multiple times and is sick of projects that don’t go anywhere or will get superseded by projects with better designs.

We're on the same boad.

Even projects like Matrix, which sucks for a few big reasons right now, could still be mostly fixed up with enough effort.

I've been following Matrix since the Riot.im days. Today, Element X is still incomplete. I'm not sure they can even achieve what they should. XMPP is a bit similar. It has been years, and still the experience is supbar.

My suspicion is that “fixing up” Delta Chat would realistically mean that they should move away from emails as part of their stack, unless there is some actual value-add from keeping it.

They kind of already do. That's what chatmail servers are: https://github.com/chatmail/relay

I am also on Signal with some of my friends, but Signal's lack of communities features ( https://community.signalusers.org/t/communities-with-sub-groups/43783 ) is what is truly lacking compared to Whatsapp.

[–] jet@hackertalks.com 2 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Obligatory https://eylenburg.github.io/im_comparison.htm

[–] Blaze@piefed.zip 2 points 3 days ago

Thank you, seems like the minimal metadata line should be updated: https://support.delta.chat/t/reach-near-zero-metadata-with-latest-delta-chat-releases/4321