Soulslike - Discussion, News, Memes

Some say the game is only ever good for a first blind playthrough and that the open world stands in their way of getting to "the fun part™" of the game.

Yes, this is pretty much where I'm at and have been since the beginning. I played ER on release and had a blast exploring the world at that time before the wikis were even filled out, where everyone was discovering the game collectively and people on forums/group chats were constantly finding new stuff. However, after finishing it I have had no desire to go back. And after the dust had settled I also came away from it with the feeling that the best parts of the game - the legacy dungeons - were the places where ER stopped being ER and played like DS4 instead.

If the entire game was like Stormveil Castle I'd probably have done a second playthrough already.

What I liked most about ER's open world was that it meant you could go and do something else if you were getting frustrated with something, then come back a little stronger and a little better. The starting region being designed to teach you this lesson is clever, and I think overall it was a huge success in getting more people into the genre.

That being said, the more traditional "scripted" (if not linear) sections of the game are where it shines. I think they learned that lesson, as the expansion is more diverging and intertwined paths, rather than fields dotted with content.

Elden Ring's world was empty, boring, and full of copy paste

No. I love ER but its open world style didnt add anything to the base formula and in some ways held it back. I dont want linear or open... i want complicated and interesting...

I'm a big fan of it (provided it is done well, of course). I love exploring in games. I enjoy seeing something interesting in the distance and being able to go check it out. I love soaking in the atmosphere of somewhere like Siofra, or figuring out the maze of Leyndell. I personally don't see the problem with replay value either, given how permissive the fast travel system and Torrent's mobility are; if you just want to zoom between the legacy dungeons on subsequent playthroughs, you absolutely can

I don't think an open world should be an expectation or a requirement, as I do recognise that making a good open world is fucking hard and resource-intensive in development. If a dev team thinks it's right for their game, though, I'm absolutely on board

The Lands Between have some low points as a map, of course. I did most of the catacombs on my first run, now I only do the ones that have something in them I want or a fun fight like Ordovis. The Consecrated Snowfields and the Mountaintops are both short on stuff to do and see. That's not the end of the world, though. I don't need it to be flawless to find it fun

Very much team nay. The ER open world was alright for one playthrough. Then i wanted to start a bow only playthrough, opened the gate out of the tutorial area and then closed the game. I love Nioh 2 and it is probably my favourite game ever but i bounced off hard from Rise of the Ronin because of the open world. While in ER you at least still had to explore the world yourself, in RotR you could open the map and see points of Interest and just run there. I just played the Nioh 3 demo a few days ago and it follows the same pattern but at least the world seems more dense and the gameplay is more varied. Also it seems to have "legacy dungeons as well"

If I could only have one style it would be more DS-style with smaller areas and branching/converging paths.

ER's open world really shines when combined with seamless co-op shenaniganry. I also played through DS3 seamless co-op and it's fun but doesn't fit nearly as well as ER.

Really hope they don’t make any more open world souls games. Open world games are already a plague on gaming and have consumed enough genres and series.

The level design is where souls games really shine, the interconnected world with secrets and shortcuts. The thought put into it really matters and you just can’t get that when the devs have to fill a literal continent. They can’t do that with dense levels. So you end up with a copy pasted empty world with clusters of details in places like the legacy dungeons.

Open worlds are unoptimized, lazy and uninteresting from a gameplay perspective.

It’s needless padding added to bloat out a game. Tedious walking (Torrent is only for single player 🙄) just to get to the next spot that has actual content. Most of the areas in Elden Ring are just landmasses that contain a single item worth gathering too.

Discovering the lands between was incredible, and that first ER run is forever etched in my memory. Then the dlc recaptured the feeling.

The open world fits Elden Rings story, imo. And that's why I like it. As a whole, as an art piece. (Even so, I aknowledge that it has many flaws.)

After nightreign and duskbloods I do hope that FS returns to the concept of strong level design. (And other studios follow)

Yay! Well, if we take Elden Ring as an example, I'm a massive fan, especially of its open world. It offers an unparalleled opportunity to simply go almost anywhere you want, which is simply not possible with a more restrictive area layout. What I particularly enjoyed is that you can go to what you see in the distance and there is much to see in the distance (Elden Ring offers great view points). Sure in previous Souls titles you saw a bit texture of familiar architecture in front of the skybox but Elden Ring you not only see Raya Lucaria in the distance but also the path you traverse to get there with ruins and towers on the side and from the academy you the see the Three Sister and from there an even better look at Ranni's estate etc.

I find both the locations you find strewn about in the open world as well as the enemy encounters varied enough. Group enemny encounters are quite decently designed in Elden Ring: Even if you agro the whole camp, you aren't getting mobbed by a dozen enemies like if you aggroed half the dungeon in DS2. Here you only get engaged by 3-4 enemies while the rest stand around waiting for their turn like action movie extras. The only thing that gets a bit repetitive are the standard catacombs textures and layouts (even though I quite enjoy some of them). This improves significantly in the DLC, where there are only three catacombs, each with a unique gimmick. Using minor dungeons to connect to new areas is also something I enjoy. Ruin-Strewn Precipice is one of the four (!) ways to the Altus Plateau and Darklight Catacombs is the way to the Abyssal Woods. I wish there was a different way to the Abyssal Woods, but my mind was blown the first time I exited the dungeon. Interacting with (Legacy) Dungeons from the overworld is under utilized in Elden Ring in my opinion. I thoroughly enjoyed the way you could access different parts of Castle Ensis from Scadu Altus. Imagine if you could access different part of Limgrave or even Liurnia from Strom Veil Castle.

The most exciting part, for me, about the open world of Elden Ring is actually not the first playthrough, but the nigh unrivaled replayability that it offers. Let me explain: On first playthrough the best thing you get from an encounter might simply be the Runes, but on a subsequent playthrough you already know where everything is and with the unparalled access that the open world provides to everything you can uniquely route each playthrough. But all of this only works because area traversal is so fast in Elden Ring. The Trarnished doesn't get exhausted after like three steps like the Cursed One and what people don't seem to realize is how incerdibly fast Torrent actually is. On a first playthrough where you stop for every interesting bauble and sight you don't notice it, but incredibly long journeys like Bestial Sanctum to Redmane Castle go by incredible fast on the back of our awesome spectral steed. Another aspect are the trapped chests, sending gates, quests, and myriad other things that shortcut the world. The Routing possiblities are endless making every playthrough of Elden Ring unique.

I'm not a huge open world fan. It's fine, but my preference would be more like multiple branching paths, some of which would be locked in a Metroidvania fashion, or just gatekept by strong enemies/bosses so you could still get through if you were stubborn enough. Something like DS1 interconnectivity, DS2 multiple branches, and DS3 Dancer blocking the late game, all put together.

On one hand, it mskes the world feel more obviously connected. On the other, I hate how small even the legacy dungeons are. I love invading; but invading is so fucking bad in ER compared to the other souls games primarily because you almost never end up in a dungeon where you can use all the monsters and traps to your advantsge. You end up outside in Limbgrave where there is fuck all to break up the host and their 2 phantoms. Or you end up invading in right as they are walking into the boss room.

All the space used to spread the dungeons apart could have been dungeons in and of themselves. The Shadow Realm is a better overall map than the Lands Between becsuse it kinda solves some of those problems by actually having monsters everywhere, POIs are more condensed, and it even manages to make finding a few of the zones challenging.

Depends. For me soulslikes are mostly derivative of metroidvanias and I tend to enjoy these games more in an interconnected map with a somewhat spiral and branching structure. Telling a story through map design is also easier this way, and roaming constraints are usually a better method of guiding a player through environmental storytelling than letting them climb and swim in a straight line from point A to point B. Elden Ring's map is pretty cool, but it's also, to my taste, bloated for the sake of it's size. This is usually what happens with open world maps, the false notion that bigger is always better and in the end it's either mostly empty or sprinkled with whatever takes the least effort. Can't say not having an open world map has stopped From Software from doing some of this in their previous games though. 😅 I also feel happier playing on open world maps when the game has systemic design aspects for immersion and emergent gameplay. It's nice to run around aimlessly enjoying the view but it gets boring soon and you wish for an option to teleport from key locations unless there are linked systems in place that make this playground a sandbox and therefore worthwhile to run around, do something new and see what happens.

So, in short, if a future soulslike has mechanically more in common with RDR2, Prey, Hitman or Metal Gear Solid 3 I'll be less sceptical of an open world map being one of it's key selling points. In fact, I'll be so hyped I'll be in pain.

I think there's room for both!

Though, I much prefer the interconnected design of DS1. It almost treats the world as an enemy, and your reward for beating each phase is easier traversal.

Elden Ring is great, but the first time I explored the world of DS1 was like the first time I played Ocarina of Time as a child.

I feel like it's really a mixed bag. Like some of the other comments I think overall I'd rather them go back to a smaller more interconnected world though. If I'm really honest I don't think any game has been as good as the first half of dark souls 1. Purely on level design. I liked the almost metroidvania layout.

I like that you can go the wrong way, although accidentally sitting at a bonfire could screw you if you were too far into the catacombs. While you aren't gated by skills like in a true metroidvania I like that you either have to find keys or find alternate routes to areas. While going through undead burg and beating the gargoyles is clearly the intended route you don't have to do that. I like that taking the master key opens up whole new routes for you and I love the amount of times you open a door back into an area that you know. Taking the elevators down from the parish and seeing firelink again might still be one of the best feelings I've gotten from any game.

Since then they've only gotten more linear. DS3 in particular feels really linear with just occasional forks in the path that dead end. For being one of my favorite games in most other ways the layout and progression is really lacking IMO. Even within areas I didn't feel like they were as interconnected as I would have liked.

The open world of Elden Ring does provide some of what I liked about DS1. You can absolutely go the wrong way and are likely to with things like chest traps sending you to Caelid. You can skip over an amazing amount of the game which I feel like is a strength. It keeps the game from feeling too linear and giving players options to explore more before taking on certain challenges. I loved finding extremely hidden caves and tombs and treasures in the world. And I was often shocked at how much bigger the map was getting. Going underground and seeing stars and realizing that this whole underground world is as big as the surface was awesome.

But I do feel like I could have done with something in between. Areas that are a bit smaller with more interconnected features. Ladders to open shortcuts and one way doors and elevators that loop around to familiar spots and less caves and tombs to keep them feeling fun and relevant. I personally understood the amount of re-used assets but you could have done away with a lot of them and kept the really interesting ones and been able to re-use things more sparingly, cut down on the amount of dungeons with a regular enemy as a boss, less watchdogs, less tree spirits.

If the next game is open world it certainly won't keep me from playing it but I'd be happier with a little less space between the "legacy dungeons" and making those legacy dungeons and bit more expansive and interconnected I think. Keep the areas that you stumble across fun and meaningful where now it's a really mixed bag on whether or not a given cave is worth the effort or not.

I like Elden Ring a lot, but the open-worldness of it means a ton of space is just empty. Its cool that like, if you can see it far away, you can get there, but everything in between is pointless imo. I like the metroidvania structure of Soulslikes.

The open map works pretty well in Nightreign, but it's very limited and repetitive. I dont mind repetition, it is a game after all, and honestly the openness of Limveld works better in NR than in ER.

Nay. Elden ring is good and works pretty well, but it still has a lot of empty space. Being able to access 70% of the map without killing a single enemy is neat, to an extent, but ultimately leads to a loss of clarity for new players, and the ability to skip large swaths of content through minor negligence.

I much prefer the crafted gauntlet of dark souls 1 and 3. There is simply too much in Elden Ring for me to ever feel like I will master the game, whereas in dark souls 1, I can venture with confidence, as turn familiar corners and always know what I will find.