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Every accusation is a confession. Remember when Israel called its war against Iran "preemptive", as well as many previous wars: https://www.aljazeera.com/gallery/2025/6/29/israels-history-of-preemptive-strikes
Though this article is still biased, using the weak language of saying that Israel has "tested the limits of international law" rather than simply "breaking international law".
You know what I think is really interesting, at the risk of being a little bit too aggro? Everyone is still trusting the exact same news sources (e.g. Al Jazeera or US alt media) who spent the last two years telling you that Al Aqsa Flood was part of Netanyahu's master plan. How did that work out? They just kind of kept believing that until the military campaign petered out without pushing everybody into Egypt or taking the city. Turns out, Vietnamese and Palestinian people are actually on to something by doing this kind of thing against colonialism. No, instead what Westerners spent their time focusing on religion and ignoring how their own country benefits from the genocide.
Yeah even if Israel supposedly let it happen, it's undeniable that Al Aqsa flood put Palestinian rights back at the forefront. Other options such as becoming Israeli slaves similar to the West Bank PA have alerady proven not to work.
Sinwar really said it best when he stated that the West would have to choose between giving Palestinians a state or dropping its pretense of human rights and destroying its entire image. The West chose the second, empowering resistances to the empire worldwide by legitimizing their opposition to Western colonialism.
That quote says that the proposal was rejected...
I dont doubt that they were planming to do it anyways, but that screenshot doesnt carry any value.
It shows Israel was actively pushing for a massive attack against the government of Palestine before Al Aqsa flood. And they had bombed Gaza two weeks beforehand.
Well, attacking a music festival with civilians certainly twarthed those plans
It was no "music festival". It was a secret rave in between a military base and an open air prison. Israeli intelligence confirmed themselves that Hamas likely had no prior knowledge of it.
Oh that changes everything of course?
Yes.
"Hamas targeted a music festival and killed hundreds of civilians, which became reasonable justification for Israel's extermination campaign in Gaza."
is indeed a very different situation from:
"When Hamas targeted the largest military base in the area surrounding Gaza, civilians that shouldn't have been there were caught in the crossfire of both Hamas fighters (ordered to take hostages) and the Israeli military (ordered to kill civilians per the Hannibal directive).
This event was used; by the very same Israel that was responsible for those civilians being there in the first place, and for the military directive to kill those civilians before they could be taken hostage; to fabricate an entirely different reality, in order to manufacture consent for an extermination campaign that was already being planned, as part of the genocide that they have been effectively been waging since the Nakba began in the 70's."
You should just read the article I linked. It's a great piece of journalism.
Hamas killed 1000a of people?
The official number is 1195, and where in the world it's called thousands.
And:
More than half those killed on October 7 were IDF and police, a large number of civilians killed at the concert were killed by Israeli tanks and Apache helicopter.
It's disgusting to keep reading these ridiculous lies.
@guy @palestine
More than half those killed on October 7 were IDF and police, a large number of civilians killed at the concert were killed by Israeli tanks and Apache helicopter.
That's literally what I'm saying; that first statement was purely written so that I could correct the other person's implied rhetoric. I'll edit it to say hundreds because you're right that "thousands" in reference to the number of civilians that were killed on October 7 is an error on my part.
Hamas targeted a military base with orders to take hostages, stumbled upon a mass of civilians on a music festival (advertised for on the web, not very secret) and decided to abandon their mission, murder and kidnap anyone they could see there instead. And this changes what Hamas did how?
The concentration camp rave was extended for multiple days. It was not 'advertised on the web' to be there during Al Aqsa flood. It should not have been there according to its planning.
That is one fucked up rewrite of the history.
Hamas did not murder civilians, Israeli IDF did.
Their goal was to kidnap as many Israeli military and militant settlers as possible to exchange with 1000s of palestinians being held hostage in Israel.
It was IDF that turned the day into a blood bath and murdered 1000s including almost 400 Israeli civilians when they triggered the Hannibal directive.
Idiots like you still believe in the lies.
That's quite the claim. Is your view that Hamas entered the festival area, didn't kill anyone but kidnapping civilians and then pulling back while Israel shot at anyone remaining? So in all the footage from the festival area, it's IDF soldiers hunting people down, cosplaying Hamas? Is this correct?
It's just so dumb that Hamas goal was to take soldiers and militant settlers from a army base hostage and they just abandoned that when they happened to come upon an advertised music festival, that they should have heard because you know, rave music, when the operation had been planned for so long.
Again,
You repeating the BS by rewtiting what I said. I followed the events on that day on social media in 5 differents language. Saw the event developing until Israel cut off the feeds and the 40 beheaded babies became the main story of the news media.
https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/defense-news/article-844008
I am not defending Hamas, but your disgusting white wash of Israeli crimes and repeating the IDF/Netanyahu propaganda is nauseating.
PS. Searhc Sderot Police station if you want to see explicit news
So correct me. We're discussing Hamas attack on the music festival.
According to the other commenter the target was an Israeli military base and the goal was to take hostages. In addition, Hamas somehow didn't knew of the music festival happening despite it being advertised on the internet, playing rave music and had been going on since the day before the attack.
You say that the goal was to kidnap as many soldiers and military settlers as possible. And I assume you mean that they resided on the same military base since that was the target. You also said a large part of the civilians killed was by Israeli violence and then that Hamas even didn't murder any civilians.
So to summarize: Hamas planned the attack on Israel for years, but missed that the festival was happening. The attackers goal was to assault an army base and take hostages but when they instead stumbled upon the festival they abandoned their target and switched to kidnap the civilians present, not killing anyone, and while going back to Gaza Israeli forces rolled in slaughtering the civilians on site?
The footage from the attack displaying Hamas murdering civilians while kidnaping others, is that actually Hamas or IDF soldiers in disguise?
music festival (advertised for on the web, not very secret)
Often referred to as the “Nova music festival” by Western media, the event on its official webpage actually named itself the “Supernova Sukkot Gathering.” A recent film about the event showed that it was more akin to the illegal raves often organized in secret locations in many Western countries.
Supernova was not illegal and was coordinated with the local Israeli police force (which was armed and present in advance to guard the event). But for reasons that are not entirely clear, the rave’s location was not announced until 6 October.
Participants in the high profile Israeli film We Will Dance Again confirmed that the Supernova location was kept secret from ticket holders until the last minute.
This (rather than any confusion about the days of the event or extension of the time, as is sometimes erroneously said online) explains why Hamas had no clue about the presence of the rave in the fields between Gaza and the biggest military base in the area – the regional headquarters at Re’im.
...
Israeli intelligence has concluded that the Palestinians had no prior knowledge of the rave.
decided to abandon their mission
“Operation Al-Aqsa Flood,” as Hamas called it, was, by any objective military measure, a stunning success.
It was said at Israel’s military headquarters that day that “the Gaza Division was overpowered,” a high-level source present later recalled to Israeli journalists. “These words still give me the chills.”
Covered from the air by armed drones and a barrage of rockets – which opened the offensive at 6:26 am exactly – Palestinian fighters launched a lightning raid over the Gaza boundary line.
The army bases were conquered for hours. Some of the settlements still had an armed Palestinian presence two days later.
The military communications infrastructure was instantly smashed. Simultaneous attacks took place by land, air and sea.
Palestinian drones took out tanks, guard posts and watchtowers.
Caught completely unprepared, most of the soldiers manning the bases were either killed or captured and taken back to Gaza as prisoners of war. A reported 255 Israelis were captured, including soldiers and civilians. Since then, 154 of them have been released, mostly by Hamas in November’s prisoner exchange.
murder and kidnap anyone they could see there instead
The rave is often reported to be the largest single site of deaths that took place on 7 October. The UN report said that 364 out of the 3,000 total ravers were “killed either at the site, near Kibbutz Re’im or in adjacent locations.”
But a detailed breakdown of the deaths recently published by The Times of Israel (based on an Israeli TV channel’s investigation) shows that more than 60 percent of this figure actually died outside of the designated grounds of the rave.
This is important for two reasons.
Firstly, despite the fact that the film We Will Dance Again tries to paint a picture of villainous Palestinian terrorists deliberately attacking civilians, it is clear from all available evidence that the rave was not a planned target of the Hamas offensive that day.
...
Secondly, the breakdown published by The Times of Israel places the deaths of ravers outside the rave grounds as far away as Sderot (11 miles north of the Supernova site) and the Re’im military base (only 2.3 miles south)
Plotting these sites of death onto Google Earth and cross referencing them with the sites of ambushes set up by Hamas’ elite commando force – as detailed by the 7 Days investigation – shows the two often coincide.
It is therefore likely that the deaths of some of these fleeing ravers were the unintended consequences of Palestinian ambushes set up to intercept Israeli army reinforcements headed to the region.
“While many reinforcements were flowing south,” Ronen Bergman and Yoav Zitun wrote in the 7 Days investigation, Hamas’ commando force “had foreseen these reinforcements and took over the strategic junctions … where they awaited the forces … a lot of blood was shed at those junctions, both of soldiers and of civilians.”
The 7 Days piece also relates instances of Israeli soldiers rushing south to join the fight on their own initiative – including in their own civilian vehicles.
...
What is still unclear about the Supernova rave is how many of the dead were killed by Palestinians, and whether any were killed in “Hannibal” attacks by Israel.
Unlike in the more built-up areas such as the military bases and the kibbutzim – where there is clear visual evidence of bombed buildings and conclusive eyewitness accounts – the visual situation in and around the Supernova site was more chaotic.
There were few built-up structures for Israeli aircraft or tanks to explode, as they did in the settlements.
Video and other photographic evidence does show that the fields around the exit of the site next to the armed Israeli checkpoint were intensively burned and blackened.
It is unclear whether this was the result of the helicopter or tank attacks, or the result of fires which may have caught alight after Palestinian rocket-propelled grenade strikes.
What is known is that Israeli armed forces on site set up a roadblock at the main exit, causing a massive backlog of cars waiting to leave the site. Many ravers ended up fleeing on foot, east across the fields as the firefight broke out.
While the We Will Dance Again film conspicuously fails to mention the roadblock set up by Israeli forces, an early CNN report does show the roadblock on its map of the scene, and The Times of Israel report states that it was probably set up as early as 7:00 am.
Journalist William Van Wagenen has detailed in a report for The Cradle that the roadblock likely led to Israeli forces unintentionally trapping some escaping ravers in a firefight between them and Palestinian fighters advancing on the Re’im military base from the north.
I really recommend you read the article.
I did read it. It was a long read about how the civilians deaths was a result of IDF killing indiscriminately and any civilian deaths by Hamas hands were accidental since civilians ended up in firefights when they were hindered by the IDF. Or if it wasn't accidental it was because of individuals not listening to Hamas orders of not targeting civilians.
Accordingly, all footage of Hamas gunning down festival visitors should be from just these few individuals. Why they kidnaped other visitors is not explained.
If all the points from the article would be true, it means that Hamas is wildly incompetent and lack control over their soldiers.
And this does still not change the fact that the festival was attacked and people was kidnapped. If the plan is to stop imminent Israeli aggression with a plan years in the making and you stumble upon a festival full of civilians you go around it and not through it. If your orders are not to target civilians you don't stop to kidnap them, you continue on to get those military targets. And you don't put bodycams on 'individuals' who murders civilians.
I don't know about you, but to me; kidnapping civilians that were put in the line of fire, and then being framed for their deaths (which, as the article points out, happened mostly outside of the site of the rave); is far better than "attacking a music festival and killing everyone in sight". That, I'll remind you, is where we started out at.
I also tend to believe that a civilian taken hostage with intent to negotiate for their release is far better than a dead civilian. I'd even venture to say it's better than one kidnapped and held indefinitely, like the over 9,000 Palestinians held by Israel to this day.
In fact, if you're so worried about kidnapping, you should ask Israel about the aforementioned Palestinian "prisoners" that are being held without charge or trial, routinely assaulted, and deprived of basic necessities. You know, the ones that might be freed in exchange for an Israeli captured from, say, a "music festival" that armed forces stumbled upon in the middle of a military offensive.
You must be pretty experienced with life as an armed resistance fighter inside a concentration camp, though, to so comfortably impose your own decision making on them. I suppose I can't say what would have happened if they just went around the festival (which I can safely assume you know for a fact that both the option to do so, and the necessity to choose that option, was clear to the fighters on the ground before they ever engaged with the armed forces there) and asked nicely for their friends and family back. Maybe the ravers would have just stayed in a nice protective bubble, and Israel wouldn't have just found another excuse to ramp up the genocide and apartheid they were already subjecting Palestinians to. Of course, the correct and moral decision is so plainly obvious! Maybe the key to peace was never to resist at all, at least for as long as the side that is happy to indiscriminately kill even their own civilians is able to put those civilians in the way of otherwise legitimate military offensives. Hm, what was that about human shields?
So anyways; sarcasm and vast exaggerations of what the article is outlining aside. If it doesn't change things for you that hundreds of deaths (very likely the majority of those on 10/7, based on the evidence shared in the article) have been both misrepresented and wrongly attributed to the armed wing of Hamas; the only force willing and able to defend Gaza and win back what is legally their own territory; by the force that is responsible for those civilians being there in the first place, and for the order to kill any civilians in the region that might be taken hostage; in order for Israel to make those false claims, delegitimize the government in Gaza as a whole, and build a false premise for their ongoing extermination of Palestinians; then we simply aren't going to agree here and I doubt any amount of facts or evidence would convince you of Palestine's legitimacy.
For people with humanity, yes. Not you, your friends, or family. You're the monsters of history. People will remember you as a Nazi or wonder why you did nothing in their naivete, not understanding you consciously knew you benefitted from the genocide. You defended it like this.
