Really shows that liberalism is just a cult at this point. These people see any views outside their own bubble as heretical and become emotionally distraught when their own views are questioned. They're not able to carry a rational discussion or even make an argument. When they engage with others they just follow a call centre style script where they regurgitate the tropes they memorized. The only tactic these trolls use is to brigade and silence views contrary to their own.
this post was submitted on 23 Jul 2023
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Comradeship // Freechat
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They would disagree because "lots of people are liberals." Which is, ironically, a common defense a lot of cults use to justify why they aren't a cult.
The "Call centre" script is pretty fascinating though, reminds me a lot of creationists. You can show them evidence of transitional fossils, biology experiments demonstrating evolution in a lab, it doesn't matter. They'll ask for specific evidence, then when presented with it, find some excuse to ignore it, like tone policing or attacking a source for being "illegitimate" or "biased" without even reading it. And when they can't do that, they'll just ignore the responses and only interact with the people hurling insults because they can dismiss that much more easily than a reasonable argument.
Some ppl in this comment section be like:
Lemmygrad: 😴
Lemmy: "tankie tankie tankie tankie tankie tankie tankie tankie tankie tankie tankie tankie tankie tankie tankie tankie tankie tankie tankie tankie tankie tankie tankie tankie tankie tankie tankie tankie tankie tankie tankie tankie tankie tankie tankie"
Rent-free, just as Mao intended
I haven't heard of you yet, what are they complaining about? I've only heard complaints about Nazis and fascists
Can’t tell if this is supposed to be a “tankie red fash lol” dig but I’ll take it in good faith anyways.
We uphold socialism here, not that socialist states are/were perfect places, but that they are/were legitimate attempts at building worker states, and demonstrably improved the lives of their citizens. Liberals (we use that to mean anyone from a nordic soc dem to moderate republican, or even unserious anarchists) really really don’t like this. The accuse us of “genocide denial” or just being “delusional” for questioning the dominant western narrative
It doesn't help that there really is nuance in discussing previous and current socialist experiments but even that has practically become a meme and is met with "communism has never worked" commentary from liberals.
US capitalism isn't working, so there's that as a counter point lol
Oh, US capitalism is working exactly as intended. They just lie about what was intended.
It's an instance for Communists, specifically Communists who support AES (actually existing socialism). In short, we think that the USSR and PRC (among others), while not perfect, were legitimate attempts at building Socialism and better than Capitalism as it exists in the West.
Other people don't like that because, to them, Stalin was just Red Hitler and Xi Jinping is literally committing a genocide right now. Neither are true.
Ah okay I can see how that's controversial, given China is heavy on censorship and control, and in reality they're just another form of capitalism run by a rich oligarchy. Plus with the way the world has changed, I think a new system is needed because we're heading towards enough automation that not everyone should need to work.
I don't know much about the USSR so I won't comment on that
China is not run by a rich ogliarchy. source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIOg_K6Z1fg
I approve of the source, however disagree with the conclusions
Ok but in all honestly, just because there are rich people in China doesn't mean it's a 'capitalist ogliarchy'. Sure, there are billionaires in the party, but they have just as much power as any farmer or worker, no more and no less.
That's not true in the slightest though? I mean the very fact that there are different wages, there's poverty, China invests heavily in foreign companies (both the government and private Chinese corporations), that's all capitalism. The farmer doesn't have any say in what tencent or the China Evergrande Group does. The CCP controls the media and limits free speech, and makes decisions for everyone. Even if you're to somehow convince me that the people who control the CCP aren't rich oligarchs, they're absolutely still in control of the CCP, and it's not communism.
Oh my god there are companies, guess there's no more socialism guys!1!1!!1
Just because there are companies does not mean that China is revisionist. And Tencent and China Evergrande have nothing to do with the government. Why would they?
edit: What do different wages have to do with socialism? Also it's CPC, not CCP.
We're talking about communism here not socialism, I didn't say China doesn't have socialism
I'm confused. Do you expect China to be instantly fully communist without money or class? Do you know that China started as a poor and feudal country and has constantly been under pressure and sanctions from the west?
It's like giving you control of an island full of people with almost no food and enemies thirsting to attack at any moment. Go on, build communism.
No, I'm saying China is a capitalist oligarchy. Currently, right now. I don't believe it can ever become communism with the current people still in power. That can be debatable, but what they are right now is definitely not communism, and that's all I was saying
Yes, it's not communism right now. But Xi Jinping is not a 'capitalist oligarch'. And China has pulled millions out of poverty, build an advanced public transport system, given massive amounts of aid to third-world countries while helping them develop, and has cracked down on corruption. If this is a 'capitalist oligarchy' then I will gladly support it.
I mean, I would also call the US a capitalist oligarchy, wouldn't call Biden an oligarch, and would say they've done the same in the past, so yeah I would still call it that personally. That's generally how industrialisation under capitalism goes. I'd even go as far as to say the US and UK had a lot of influence on it getting where it is in the first place, and it's very difficult to do trade with the west in this world without shifting towards capitalism. (Not impossible, but difficult)
Edit: In the definition of oligarchy, a small group of people hold power. I take that as relatively small, so maybe I'm mis using the term. Aristocracy might be a better term, but it's somewhere in the middle
The US has not eliminated poverty. Where did you get that from? In addition, the US has done nothing to help 3rd world countries at all, only to exploit them for resources. Before you say that's what China is doing too, it's not.
I did not say the US eliminated poverty and you didn't say China has eliminated poverty?
The US has indeed exploited countries for resources, but that does mean they haven't also helped in some cases, even if it's a minority of cases
China has eliminated poverty. And China helped in every case, while the US exploited in every case. I don't see how those two are similar.
You're splitting hairs at this point, I don't understand why
How is that "splitting hairs"? If I go to your house and help you build it, is that really the same as blasting it down with explosives?
I love how the Spector seems to imply an evil in the heads of most Normans. I see it in my friends group and I will admit I had heard the line in the past and thought the same. Then I decided to actually read instead of parrot and realized it's a Spector in the same literary sense as the Spectors from A Christmas Carol that haunt Ebenezer Scrooge.
The Spector of Communism exposes the world to the material realities of it's past and present, which lay the stones that lead to the grim shadows of a future yet to come. Shadows, dear reader, that we might change by leading an altered life.
Reminds me of https://existentialcomics.com/comic/148
“A spectre is haunting the Young Hegelians: the spectre of my glorious beard.” “I thought we agreed not to do the spectre thing anymore”
Edit: Fixed typo
Shaving is indeed a problem.
Sure, this instance defines itself as pro-Marxism/pro-socialism, and there is a serious conversation to be had about the pros and cons of different systems of economy. I struggle to understand, however, why people on this instance are so pro-Russia today, where Russia now is so blatantly a capitalist kleptocracy. This undermines any perception that people on this instance are approaching this in good faith, and gives the impression lemmygrad is the product of Russian troll farms.
As to why this small instance gathers so much attention within Lemmy, it keeps showing up in my "All" feed, that probably has something to do with it 👾
We are not "Pro-Russia", this is a bad faith label that is used to smear us. We SUPPORT Russia in the current conflict against Nato and the west. Which is what any principled anti-imperialist would do.
So just to wrap my head around this, the anti-imperialists are the ones who have invaded a sovereign country twice in 8 years?
🗣️ IMPERIALISM DOESNT MEAN "ONE COUNTRY INVADES ANOTHER PLEASE GET THAT THROUGH YOUR HEAD"
Aight I googled it because learning is fun
- a policy of extending a country's power and influence through colonization, use of military force, or other means*
Sounds like it fits mate
Lmao, you probably think the soviets pushing into Nazi Germany on the eastern front is Russian "imperialism" too, since a military entered a foreign country. Read a book.
Not at all dude. Russia defended its land in an existential war against a fascism in way not dissimilar to what Ukraine is doing right now. I suppose the question is why does Russia 41-45 have the right to defend their sovereignty while Ukraine 2014-present does not? Don’t forget that the Soviets benefitted massively from US and British arms and equipment much like Ukraine today.
Do yourself a favor and see what happened in 2014.
I'll give you a hint. It was a coup.
The anti imperialists are the ones preventing the expansion of the organization that attacked Iraq, took part in several conflicts in former Yugoslavia, invaded Afghanistan, attacked Iraq again and then Libya.
All while expanding to 15 countries in the last 30 years. That is the imperialism we are opposing.
So the anti-imperialists are the ones who invaded twice and annexed Chechnya, rolled tanks into Georgia, invaded Luhansk, Donetsk and Crimea in a blatant land grab, levelled Syrian cities (which is ongoing btw) and used chemical weapons on civilians, aggressively pursued Russian interests in Mali, Libya and Sudan with the Wagner group, and started a full scale invasion of Ukraine which is ongoing… and they’re the good guys?
It’s wild that you can look at them and say yeah, russia are the good guys in this whole thing lol. There’s a reason why countries want to be in NATO in 2023 and that reason is Russia.
You did not just compare Russia preventing a Jihadist breakaway state from forming in their country to the US destroying Iraq for made up reasons and creating the catalyst for all modern Islamist terrorism, Jesus fucking Christ.
Just casually sweeping the soviet invasion of Afghanistan under the rug 👏
More ahistorical nonsense.
They asked the Soviets to help them...kinda like how the people of the Donbass also asked Russia to help them.
And libs are fuming about it all the same. Almost like their dedication to objectivity and human rights is a lie and they just stan US empire no matter what.
funny.. i had Lemmy.ml bookmarked in a browser i rarely use and it says it's an online place for leftists. couldn't be further from the truth these days