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From both a technical perspective and if the maintainers of these anti-cheat will consider porting or re-writing kernel level anti-cheat to work on linux, is it possible? Do you think that the maintainers of kernel level anti-cheat will be adamant in not doing it, or that the kernel even supports it or will support it. I think that if it ever happens, there will be a influx of people moving to linux, or abandoning their duelboots, and that alot of people will hate that such a thing is available on linux.

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[–] muusemuuse@lemm.ee 9 points 6 hours ago

Short answer: no

Long answer: only the most important things should even have such low-level access to the system. A fucking game is not in that category. Nooooooo

[–] qweertz@programming.dev 10 points 8 hours ago

Every IT-literate person fights kernel-lvl malware disguising as games with everything they got.

Since Linux has a high percentage of those, I hope those "solutions" will never spread

[–] savvywolf@pawb.social 4 points 8 hours ago

It's relatively trivial, you just need to write a kernel module. You'd just need/want to make it gpl so everything it does is fully audited and transparent. That's not a problem, is it? Right?

From a technical standpoint, you could argue that someone could create a fork of the kernel that spoofs the interface that the anticheat uses to make it ignore things. You can, of course, also do something similar in Windows, but security theatre never let practicality get in the way.

[–] phantomwise@lemmy.ml 40 points 14 hours ago (1 children)

I can't wait until I am able to give random programs kernel access on my system! That doesn't sound problematic in the least! After all, I have the fullest confidence that for companies developing anticheat, my security is their highest concern! /s

[–] nanook@friendica.eskimo.com 0 points 9 hours ago (1 children)

@phantomwise @SpiderUnderUrBed Every program on your system has "kernel access", it's called "syscalls", but actually being able to modify the kernel, that is another matter.

[–] lemmylemonade@lemmy.ml 2 points 7 hours ago

lol 🤣. Aren't you a tech guy?

[–] ulu_mulu@lemmy.zip 89 points 22 hours ago (1 children)

I surely hope they never will, no user program should ever be allowed to run at kernel level, that's what malware does.

I personally avoid those kind of games, but those who won't can dual-boot.

[–] Mwa@thelemmy.club 8 points 21 hours ago
[–] AnnaFrankfurter@lemmy.ml 23 points 21 hours ago* (last edited 21 hours ago) (1 children)

From technical point of view it is possible. eBPF already has almost everything needed for doing that. And I think it can be done with a simple LKM but if they want it included in the main tree I'm sure they'll get some colorful email from Linus.

[–] Diplomjodler3@lemmy.world 15 points 20 hours ago

I really want to see that email.

[–] buckykat@hexbear.net 36 points 1 day ago

kernel level anti cheat is malware

abandon ranked, return to private lobbies

[–] olafurp@lemmy.world 53 points 1 day ago (2 children)

It's the other way around. Windows will stop supporting kernel level anti-cheat because of Crowdstrike

[–] EtzBetz@feddit.org 5 points 14 hours ago

They want to provide APIs that basically do an equal job but will restrict direct access.

[–] vintageballs@feddit.org 5 points 17 hours ago
[–] haui_lemmy@lemmy.giftedmc.com 22 points 1 day ago

I sure hope not. Play on someone else's pc if you want them to have control.

[–] dan@upvote.au 40 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (8 children)

AFAIK Microsoft have plans to block kernel level anti-cheat on Windows. After the CrowdSec issues last year, they're rethinking which types of programs should even be allowed to run in kernel space.

Edit: I was wrong. They actually want to increase what can be done in user mode, to reduce reliance on kernel mode code.

[–] GenderNeutralBro@lemmy.sdf.org 12 points 18 hours ago

They actually want to increase what can be done in user mode, to reduce reliance on kernel mode code.

That's basically what Apple did with macOS 11. They deprecated kernel extensions and replaced them with "system extensions", and created new APIs so security tools, VPNs and such could function without kernel-level privileges.

[–] coconut@programming.dev 12 points 1 day ago (1 children)

They don't. One article lied, people never read anything but the title and here we are this getting mentioned every once in a while.

[–] dan@upvote.au 8 points 1 day ago

Thanks. I looked into it a bit more and it looks like they actually want to increase what can be done in userland, to reduce the reliance on kernel mode. That's still a good solution, if things the anti-cheat code needs to do can be moved into userland.

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[–] coconut@programming.dev 63 points 1 day ago (4 children)

Sure hope not. If I wanted to run rookits I'd just use Windows. Why bother with Linux?

This is why I don't want more Linux adoption and don't understand people cheering every new user. We're in a sweet spot where a lot of games enable userland anticheat while we don't get kernel level ports (however they may be shipped doesn't matter). The only thing that'll come out of more adoption is kernel level anticheat ports that'll probably work with a few corporate backed distros only and we'll actually lose the games we have today. Because those will switch over the kernel level alternatives too.

The only way I'd like Linux to be a generic multiplayer platform is server side anticheats. It is very obviously the way to go and we are seeing extremely slow adoption (e.g. Marvel Rivals).

[–] Geodad@lemmy.world 4 points 17 hours ago

I think the more people who aren't using corporate operating systems, the better.

I'm firmly against Microsoft, Red Hat, and Ubuntu.

[–] ulu_mulu@lemmy.zip 4 points 22 hours ago

On one side, I'm one of those glad for people coming to Linux because Linux is truly fantastic and it can make your life easier on many things, I'm happy for them.

On the other side, I share your concerns, because everything that gets adopted by the masses is inevitably subject to enshittification, I would never want that to happen to Linux.

We should find a sweet middle-point tho I have no idea what that would be.

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[–] HelloRoot@lemy.lol 6 points 21 hours ago* (last edited 20 hours ago) (1 children)

Doesn't Splitgate 2 have kernel level anti cheat that works on Linux? Maybe it is "trapped" inside wine/proton but they explicitly made it work and people are thanking them on steam discussions.

[–] GregorGizeh@lemmy.zip 6 points 14 hours ago

Helldivers 2 works (or at least used to when I played it) as well, while requiring kernel access on windows

[–] MachineFab812@discuss.tchncs.de 35 points 1 day ago (3 children)

I think its less a question of the technical feasibility, and more of an issue that we, as users, don't want more closed-source blobs in our kernels. Meanwhile, the publishers insist that they can't open-source their anti-cheat code; Their idea being that if we know what's in it, it will be easier to bypass.

Basically, one distro or a few(at most) may get anti-cheat integrated one day(like, say, SteamOS), but it will likely never be in your standard Linux kernal.

They could go the rought of kernel modules, I would think, but for whatever reason, we're still having this conversation.

[–] unprovenbreeze@lemmy.dbzer0.com 6 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Basically, one distro or a few(at most) may get anti-cheat integrated one day(like, say, SteamOS), but it will likely never be in your standard Linux kernal.

Valve also has server side anticheat in his games (Counter Strike or Deadlock). They are also against it.

Kernel-level anticheats can be bypassed anyways, but they are the easy solution for the corps that want to sell their multiplayer game.

[–] phantomwise@lemmy.ml 0 points 14 hours ago

Shite is still shite, even if it's open source shite.

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[–] Mwa@thelemmy.club 5 points 21 hours ago

No Wine/Proton cannot translate calls that run too deep into the Kernel

[–] kadup@lemmy.world 24 points 1 day ago (2 children)

Absolutely nothing prevents somebody from writing a kernel level anticheat on Linux.

Users would throw a fit, and it would be way easier to bypass, but it certainly could be made.

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[–] Thordros@hexbear.net 12 points 1 day ago

Meanwhile in indie land, I just tried to cheat my way through a Chapter 3 minigame in Deltarune, and Toby Fox himself showed up in his dogsona to blow up the game and make me start the minigame over.

This is the extent to which anti-cheat measures should go.

[–] thingsiplay@beehaw.org 11 points 1 day ago (2 children)

One way I can imagine it being some certified Linux kernel versions that are accepted and worked together with anticheat creators. That way Valve could use the Kernel in Steam Deck or SteamOS, so any game works out of the box. And other distribution users can just install this Kernel too, if their distributions provide it.

Anyone who don't want to have Kernel level anticheat systems enabled on their system, do not need to install the Kernel. Therefore they are secure against it. But for anyone else who wants it, they can. At least this option would be a compromise.

[–] vrighter@discuss.tchncs.de 5 points 1 day ago (4 children)

if it's linux, it has to be open source. If it's open source, people will code around it immediately. How about not trying to shoehorn this useless crap in the first place?

[–] 0xtero@beehaw.org 6 points 1 day ago

It doesn’t have to be open source. There’s plenty of binary firmware and drivers around.

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[–] JTskulk@lemmy.world 12 points 1 day ago (3 children)

I'm not a programmer or cheater or anything, but I think the answer is yes and no. Yes it could technically be done and even work as intended as long as the device is locked down to prevent the user from replacing the shipped kernel (which would be a bad thing for users). However, savvy people could (in theory) make custom kernels that lie to the kernel module, causing the module to report there is no cheating when there is. It's my understanding that it's close to the current situation with Windows and virtual machines and anticheat: you can cheat by running your game in a VM and then have that virtual hardware extract secret information or flip bits in the right spots. Most competitive games will refuse to run in a VM for this reason.

[–] coconut@programming.dev 3 points 1 day ago (2 children)

Kernel level anti cheats require secure boot. You can't just "lie" and load an unsigned kernel.

[–] DarkMetatron@feddit.org 7 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (5 children)

You can add your own signing keys to the UEFI and boot an modified bootloader and Kernel that you have signed yourself. So yes, it is possible to "lie"

For such a locked down system, akin to game consoles or smartphones, would be needed. And even those get jail broken and manipulated, so "total security" on there is not complete but easier to check and ensure. Another way to make sure that the code is not manipulated would be to put all those games into the cloud and have every player only play via streaming. All the code would then run on secured, locked down and verified machines.

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[–] MonkderVierte@lemmy.zip 3 points 21 hours ago
[–] MTK@lemmy.world 6 points 1 day ago

It is probably actually easier to create on linux as it is foss and there are also good projects like eBPF which can maybe even simplify and make it more secure.

[–] bad_news@lemmy.billiam.net 12 points 1 day ago (3 children)

It already works, but studios using anticheats that DO support Linux CURRENTLY don't bother implementing it because we're maaaaaybe 3% of the market on a good day, so they say "fuck it" and don't expend a few dev hours to enable it because they see it as a pain to deal with v users who need it.

[–] bonn2@lemmy.zip 11 points 1 day ago (1 children)

AFAIK the current anticheat systems on Linux only run in userspace not at kernel level. This does mean Linux is theoretically easier to bypass compared to windows, some games just dont seem to want to take that risk. For as you said 3% of the market.

I personally disagree with that stance though, because all it takes is a hardware device and all software anticheats are useless no matter the os (think a raspberry pi, and capture card). So anticheat is really a losing battle anyways.

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[–] pinball_wizard@lemmy.zip 5 points 1 day ago

we're maaaaaybe 3% of the market on a good day, so they say "fuck it"

So true. And worse than that, we're probably also the 3% most likely to skip buying a game that requires anti-cheat, anyway. Many of us are famously un-friendly toward closed source code running with invasive permissions.

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[–] southsamurai@sh.itjust.works 8 points 1 day ago

I hope to fuck not.

[–] solrize@lemmy.ml 8 points 1 day ago (2 children)

What does it even mean? People can recompile the kernel to turn the crap off.

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