this post was submitted on 08 Feb 2025
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I have backups on a backup hard drive and also synced to B2, but I am thinking about backing up to some format to put in the cupboard.

The issue I see is that if I don't have a catastrophic failure and instead just accidentally delete some files one day while organising and don't realise, at some point the oldest backup state is removed and the files are gone.

The other thing is if I get hit by a bus and no one can work out how to decrypt a backup or whatever.

So I'm thinking of a plain old unencrypted copy of photos etc that anyone could find and use. Bonus points if I can just do a new CD or whatever each year with additions.

I have about 700GB of photos and videos which is the main content I'm concerned about. Do people use DVDs for this or is there something bigger? I am adding 60GB or more each year, would be nice to do one annual addition or something like that.

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[–] fmstrat@lemmy.nowsci.com 2 points 20 hours ago (1 children)

Don't use them, but these seem right for you: https://lemm.ee/post/55012343

[–] Dave@lemmy.nz 2 points 19 hours ago (1 children)

Thanks, I missed that post! Looks like the comment section would have answered a lot of my question.

In the end I have pulled the trigger and bought an M-Disc capable burner and a stack of M-Discs, so I'm gonna give that a go and see how it works out.

[–] fmstrat@lemmy.nowsci.com 2 points 8 hours ago (1 children)

Sounds good. They do make 100GB MDisc but they are a shorter life span: https://a.co/d/dTOLvW8

[–] Dave@lemmy.nz 1 points 1 hour ago

What makes you say they are shorter life span? The 25GB and 100GB both have the same "several hundred years" claim.

[–] philpo@feddit.org 7 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

Currently the only solution for a consumer are M-Disc Blue rays. They are currently the only "write once read many" media available that are preferable in these types of situations.

The media is comparable cheap - you can safe your amount of data for around 80-90USD/€ initially(or less for more but smaller discs) and then pay around 10$/€ per year for the new amount of data.

The chances that in 20 years someone is still able to read them are fairly high - there are numerous businesses that are using these disc as WORM media to backup important data on a medium that a opposing lawyer later cannot claim "was manipulated". In 50 years it is very likely to be readable at least by professionals. The discs itself are rated for much longer storage.

If you write on them unencrypted there should be no problem of writing on them. Additionally they do not have issues with byte rot,etc.

[–] Dave@lemmy.nz 3 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Yeah it's an interesting thought. They seem to come up to 100GB capacity, but the wikipedia page claims (with a [dubious] qualifier) that you need some sort of special higher power burning device to write to M-Disc.

I don't have an optical drive at the moment. Would I just pick any rated for BDXL?

[–] philpo@feddit.org 3 points 1 day ago

You need a designated M Disc capable burner,yes. (Not generic BDXL,there are slight differences) There are a few on the market though - they cost around 100-150 bucks usually.(In theory you can use a regular writer sometimes - I know people who do that,but why risk that?) I usually recommend the verbatim to my clients,they are dirt cheap and work flawlessly so far.

For reading the discs any regular data-capabale blue ray disk drive will do.

[–] TheHolm@aussie.zone 5 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Just a hdd in usb caddy? IMHO good enough for 4 tier backup.

[–] Dave@lemmy.nz 4 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Yes this seems to be the general theme. Main issue is sorting out a file system. I can use a self-repairing one, to recover from long term storage issues, but then it likely won't work in Windows which it may need to if I want a layman to be able to access it. So still some refinement of the plan but it's coming together.

I've also decided to print some physical photos, aiming for 100 per year, and will put everything in a container together. The physical photos are for in case the container is lost for decades and the drives die, then there will at least be something.

[–] TheHolm@aussie.zone 3 points 2 days ago

If you need something which can withstand some bitrot on single drive, just use par2. As long is filesystem is readable, you can recover files even if bit of data get corrupted

[–] schizo@forum.uncomfortable.business 20 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (33 children)

I'm using blu-ray disks for the 3rd copy, but I'm not backing up nearly as much data as you are.

The only problem with optical media is that you should only expect it to be readable for a couple of years, best case, at this point and probably not even that as the tier 1 guys all stop making it and you're left with the dregs.

You almost certainly want some sort of tape option, assuming you want long retention periods and are only likely to add incremental changes to a large dataset.

Edit: I know there's longer-life archival optical media, but for what that costs, uh, you want tape if at all possible.

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[–] Krik@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 2 days ago (6 children)

For local backups it depends on what you want to have:

  • The cheapest option is a usb or thumb drive. But you have to regularly plug it in and copy your backup on it.
  • The lazy option is to buy a NAS and configure a backup job that regularly creates a backup. Versioned, incremental, differentials and full backups are possible as is WORM to add a bit of extra security. You can configure a NAS to only turn on specified times, do a backup and then turn off again. This will increase protection against encrypting malware. WORM also helps in this case.
    Or just let it run 24/7, create backups every hour and install extra services on it like AI powered image analysis to identify people and objects and let it automatically tag your photos. Cool stuff! Check out QNAP and Synology or build a NAS yourself.
    A NAS can also be configured to present its content in a LAN by itself. Any computer will automatically connect to it if the access isn't secured by user/password or certificate.

I recommend buying a NAS.

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[–] killabeezio@lemm.ee 3 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (2 children)

I decided instead to use ZFS. Better protection than just letting something sit there. Your backups are only as good as your restores. So, if you are not testing your restores, those backups may be useless anyway.

ZFS with snapshots, replicated to another ZFS box. The replicated data also stores the snapshots and they are read-only. I have snapshots running every hour.

I have full confidence that my data is safe and recoverable.

With that said, you could always use M-disk.

[–] bluGill@fedia.io 1 points 1 day ago

ZFS even if only one server is much better than most people have. If your ZFS replication is to a different building you have done pretty good. However as others have pointed out there are limits. Those servers costs you a couple bucks/month in electric (where I live my electric is 100% wind, but most of you should read CO2). You have to buy both servers, and hard drives will crash regularly.

There are a lot of trade offs, but cold storage backups are often much cheaper in the long run than the backup zfs server. And those cold backups are a lot easier to put into multiple different locations.

[–] Dave@lemmy.nz 2 points 2 days ago (2 children)

I have automated backups including to cloud, but I want a separated manual system that cannot get erased if I mess something up (accidentally sync a delete, lose encryption key, forget to pay cloud bill). I have 3 2 1 but it's all automated and backups are eventually replaced, if it's not a critical failure I won't necessarily know I've lost something.

Basically, I specifically want cold storage, and not cloud. I will only add, not delete from it. And I don't want it encrypted.

Based on other conversations I'm planning on using duel disks mirrored, zfs, annual updates and disk checks with disks rotated out every 5 years (unless failing/failed). Handling the need for layman retrival of data by including instructions with the hard drives.

[–] admin@sh.itjust.works 2 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

Basically, I specifically want cold storage, and not cloud. I will only add, not delete from it. And I don't want it encrypted.

I have a client with a photographic studio. To give you an estimate, his data is around 14TB of mostly camera pictures with approximately 20 years or history and the owner believe it or not, relies on multiple external hard drives for cold storage, he has a 2TB Seagate thats like 2011-2012 old which still works.

To put in a cupboard tho, M disc is your best bet.

[–] killabeezio@lemm.ee 3 points 2 days ago

That sounds like a really good idea. You basically get the best of everything.

The cool thing about ZFS is the pool information is stored on the disks themselves. You can just plug them in and import the pools.

[–] IsoKiero@sopuli.xyz 6 points 3 days ago (3 children)

After reading the previous discussion I think that you should get more than single drive to store cold backups. That way you can at least spread out the risk of single drive failing. 2TB spinning drives are pretty cheap today and if you have, for example, 4 of them, you can buy one now, write your backups to it and in 6 months buy another, write data on that and so on.

This way you'll have drives with year or two difference on purchase date, so it's pretty unlikely all of them fail at once and a single drive gets powered on and checked every other year or so. My personal experience is that spinning drives are pretty stable on the shelf, but I wouldn't rely on them for decades. And of course even with multiple drives you'll still want to replace them every 3-5 years each. Plus with multiple drives, if I were to build setup like that, I'd set up some sort of scripts or other solution where I can just plug the thing in and doubleclick an icon on desktop to refresh the data and maybe get a notification automatically that the drive you're using should be replaced.

And for actual, long term storage, printouts are the way to go. At least in here you can get books made out of photo paper with your pictures. That's one media which is actually stable over long period and using them doesn't require a lot of technical knowledge nor hardware. But I'd still keep digital copies around, as the printouts aren't resistant to things like house fire or water damage.

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[–] LandedGentry@lemmy.zip 14 points 3 days ago (2 children)

Just buy a spinning drive and call it a day. Follow 3-2-1 protocol and you’ll never lose anything . Check your longterm “cold storage” HDD’s 1-2 times a year. They should last 5-10 with little fuss. Some will go longer with no issues.

If you follow 3-2-1 you’ll never lose anything and you only have to spend a few hours a year thinking about backups.

[–] philpo@feddit.org 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

This is actually terrible advice. WORM media exists for a reason and telling someone with a mere 3-2-1 he will never loose data is absolutely irresponsible.

Neither is it a good idea to use regular hard-disk for offsite-cold storage. A really really bad idea.

[–] LandedGentry@lemmy.zip 1 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

If you follow proper 3-2-1 you are living the four nine’s dude. A “regular” spinning HDD can last a decade or more without fuss (define “regular” please…?)

You will not lose all 3 backups at once. When one goes down, you replace it. There’s a reason this is industry standard for media production and beyond. “Irresponsible”? Please.

[–] philpo@feddit.org 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

3-2-1 is the minimal consensus and not recommended anymore for everything you need to reliably have access to after a long time - the fact that some ransomware viruses intentionally have a very time they are laying low to decrypt old and rarely used files is one of the main reasons. Healthcare, finance, taxation, accounting, etc. are all sectors that heavily rely on WORM media and long term tape storage.

You are right that a spinning disk often can work for 10 years - but there is a reason they are exchange earlier in a professional setting. Not all of them will. And you were talking about cold storage disks. This is something even the manufacturers do not recommend - for a reason.

[–] LandedGentry@lemmy.zip 1 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Dude this isn’t healthcare this is a person’s home backups. Are you kidding me?

And yes you swap them earlier, I am just saying what is possible. Not that you should buy 1 drive, sit around 10 years, and expect everything to be fine.

You’re being very antagonistic here as well. I’m not sure what all the hostility is about. Either way I bet you if you follow 321 for your home backups you’ll never lose a single thing. Idk what you do at home and what you’re storing but for the vast majority of people that is more than enough.

[–] Dave@lemmy.nz 12 points 3 days ago (3 children)

I have 3 2 1 but I want the equivalent of a suitcase of photos in the cupboard. No family member is gonna be cleaning out my house as they move me to a rest home and stumble upon my Borg backup in B2 object storage. And if they do they won't have the key. I want something a bit closer to physical.

I think an extra drive for cold storage is a good idea. My main backups are automated, this one I can add any new files done in the last year once a year, then back in the cupboard. I just need to make sure I'm rotating the drives so I don't have the same one in storage for 50 years, and instead buy new ones every 5 years or so.

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[–] tvcvt@lemmy.ml 6 points 3 days ago (3 children)

This was a recent point of discussion on the 2.5 Admins podcast (https://2.5admins.com/2-5-admins-228/). Some good discussion on there.

My own thought is the best way to handle your family-member-finding-your-old-photos problem is the analog way: make some prints. It’s absolutely idiot proof, the methodology of keeping paper goods is well understood, and the technology is platform independent.

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[–] jqubed@lemmy.world 13 points 3 days ago (8 children)

I have not used them myself, but M-DISC sounds like what you’re looking for. There are a few other alternatives listed on that Wikipedia article, too.

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[–] ifmu@lemmy.world 9 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (1 children)

I usually use a dehydrator for ~3 days on my drives to make them shelf stable. So far I haven’t had any issues.

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[–] acockworkorange@mander.xyz 4 points 3 days ago (1 children)

For photos? Archival prints. As a bonus, you also get a cool album to reminisce later in life.

[–] Dave@lemmy.nz 3 points 2 days ago (1 children)

I don't want to sort through the 50k photos, and can't print videos. I'm hoping in 10 or 20 years I'll be able to feed it into AI to spit out all the best ones, then I'll consider it.

We do have photos printed, but only a very small percentage of the total.

[–] acockworkorange@mander.xyz 2 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Completely understandable. I say this as someone with way more photos in digital only media than I should.

[–] Dave@lemmy.nz 2 points 2 days ago

I've decided I should have a small number of physical prints, as extra redundancy. I'm thinking I'll print 100 each year to store with the hard drive backup.

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