this post was submitted on 20 Jan 2025
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Programming

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[–] dirtycrow@programming.dev 1 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago)

I fiddled with TI BASIC in school and wrote a horrifying abomination that ran Minesweeper. Complete with 3x3 clearing and flagging. Calc 1 was my free period.

[–] floofloof@lemmy.ca 16 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (2 children)

I dunno. I've been programming on and off since the 1980s and professionally since the early 2000s. It still always takes me forever to build anything worthwhile and even longer to maintain it. Most software these days is complicated enough that it requires many people to build and maintain. I'm not sure that "everyone should be equipped to program what they need" was realistic even back in the 1980s, let alone with today's complexity.

Most users don't want to be sucked down a bottomless time hole just getting their computer to do a thing it won't do, and understandably prefer to have someone else suffer this for them, then use what was built.

So I don't know about the goal of everyone being able to program. I still think it's a worthwhile goal that people should have full control over their machines so that they can install and uninstall what they want, configure devices to work the best way for them, and turn off the features that don't serve the user at all. And I think open source software is great for bringing technically inclined people together to collaborate on what's actually useful to people.

[–] ProdigalFrog@slrpnk.net 2 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

I agree entirely, especially as modern systems massively ballooning the required knowledge and skill.

However, I do think there could've perhaps been a happy medium, where OS's retained and continued to develop a simple, built in way to program easily and without setup to retain the spirit of what BASIC provided.

I guess I'm imagining a sort've evolved version of Hypercard, which seemed to be on the path of providing something like that.

The beauty of HyperCard is that it lets people program without having to learn how to write code — what I call "programming for the rest of us". HyperCard has made it possible for people to do things they wouldn't have ever thought of doing in the past without a lot of heavy-duty programming. It's let a lot of non-programmers, like me, into that loop.

David Lingwood, APDA

There seems to be Decker as a spiritual successor, which is pretty neat.

[–] maegul@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 month ago

I’ve felt for a long time that continuous gradients of complexity with sensible defaults all along the spectrum is a general architectural pattern necessary for wide spread empowerment. But I don’t see anyone thinking in those terms. Maybe it’s just me, but it feels obvious. As you say, but everyone is going to dive into the source code. So let them find the level at which they’re comfortable.

[–] HubertManne@moist.catsweat.com 5 points 1 month ago (1 children)

140 years after the automobile, most drivers can't or won't repair their car!

[–] LovableSidekick@lemmy.world 4 points 1 month ago

Car user manuals used to tell you how to refill the battery. Now they tell you not to drink what's in the battery.

[–] drspod@lemmy.ml 3 points 1 month ago (3 children)

50 years after BASIC and nothing is written in BASIC.

To replicate its success from the 80s we would need a language that is simple enough for everyone to learn but actually performant and powerful enough to write an entire operating system and application stack in. Then perhaps non-programmers would feel more inclined to look under the hood, see how things work, and change their program's behavior.

The problem though, is that for any reasonably complex system or application, you need to use structured programming. This is what enabled the levels of abstraction that we use to break down programs into layers that can be understood in pieces, and it is what makes large complex software possible without ending up with a mess of spaghetti.

However it is these abstractions that turn a software's code into a Domain Specific Language, and endless APIs that need to be learnt and understood by the programmer.

For programmers it is normal to us that when we want to work on a new codebase we have to learn the idiosyncrasies of the codebase, and learn its DSL and the APIs that it uses, or exposes. But for a non-programmer, this would essentially feel like learning everything about programming from scratch. They would have to become a programmer and develop maintainer skills just to understand what they want to change. (This is why programmer is still a job).

Perhaps the real value of BASIC was that without structured programming, every program was just a pile of spaghetti that even a child could pull apart with a fork.

[–] TrickDacy@lemmy.world 3 points 1 month ago

Why would a new hypothetical language need to be able to build an OS for everyday people to take interest? I don't see how that would be the case at all

[–] qaz@lemmy.world 3 points 1 month ago

I don't see how an accessible language should also need to be able to be used for system programming. A simpler python seems like a better option.

[–] AnAmericanPotato@programming.dev 0 points 1 month ago (1 children)

I'd kill for a modern HyperCard.

[–] tal@lemmy.today -1 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Maybe hold off on the homicide. I bet someone has done something like that.

kagis

https://andregarzia.com/2019/07/livecode-is-a-modern-day-hypercard.html

LiveCode is a modern day HyperCard and everyone who used HyperCard will feel at home at it.

LiveCode runs on macOS, Windows and Linux and can generate standalone binaries for all those platforms plus Android and iOS. You can get it from https://www.livecode.com/ or you can get a GPL version of it from https://www.livecode.org/.

The language looks reminiscent of my memories of HyperTalk.

[–] RedstoneValley@sh.itjust.works 2 points 1 month ago

I can only think of one example where some simple programming skills could benefit ordinary users: Home Automation. All the more difficult stuff is already neatly packaged in ready to modules, and the user doesn't have to worry about the ZigBee protocol or APIs or network ports to turn on a light bulb. Here some knowledge about conditionals, variables, loops can easily be used to program useful automations.

[–] MadhuGururajan@programming.dev 2 points 1 month ago

Man who celebrates the invention of the wheel laments that people won't reinvent the wheel

In my experience it doesn't matter how accessible the language becomes, most people find the precision required to make machines behave in a desirable way is exhausting or alien to them.

This isn't any kind of failing though. I've come to see how organising modern businesses (with processes, regulations, standard etc) is a kind of "programming". And there are many who are good at that (designing human processes to automate goals) where I completely flounder, even with the help of the 'right' training, books, coaching etc

[–] JoeKrogan@lemmy.world 1 points 1 month ago

It will only get worse with the phone and tablet generation and LLMs.

[–] TheV2@programming.dev 1 points 1 month ago

Why should they? Less users are programming anything, but more people have become users of computers in the first place. And we have more users of computers, precisely because the levels of abstraction do not require the ordinary user to program anything. Today's ordinary user is more "ordinary" than fifty years ago. This development of making a tool or subject more accessible to the layman, by hiding the complexities with abstractions and yet allowing more skilled users to gain advantages by peeling away the abstractions, is present in many different fields throughout the history of mankind.

If you look closely, it is not really surprising. Not even a problem at all. In fact, if you have the simple understanding that maybe somebody doesn't want to program, not because they are a stupid idiot or a lazy normie consumer, but because they simply don't give a shit about it, follow other interests and can contribute to the world with other skills, then the observation that most users are not programming anything, is insanely unproblematic.

[–] jawa21@lemmy.sdf.org 1 points 1 month ago (1 children)

To be fair, we are at a point where most users will never need to program anything as most needs are already met by existing work. The whole "there's an app for that" marketing had a lot of truth to it.

[–] LovableSidekick@lemmy.world 1 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (2 children)

Also most student-age people today who would have become programmers 20 years ago probably won't, because AI will be generating most code. The definition of "programming" will change to writing and tweaking effective specs for AI to generate code from. Back in the 80s and 90s I liked to say our ultimate goal as programmers was to eliminate our own jobs. Well I'll be darned...

[–] MadhuGururajan@programming.dev 2 points 1 month ago

because AI will be generating most code.

What's funny is AI is learning from developer code to write code. If it runs out of this dataset it has to eat it's own output. This is a recipe for disaster.

[–] Giooschi@lemmy.world 1 points 1 month ago (1 children)

50 years ago people thought everyone would be able to program using BASIC, now you think everything will be able to program using AI. It seems nothing has changed in 50 years.

[–] LovableSidekick@lemmy.world 1 points 1 month ago

Well, reading comprehension hasn't changed. I said "most" not "everyone". Amazingly the world isn't binary.

[–] LovableSidekick@lemmy.world 1 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

The Tandy (i.e. Radio Shack) TRS80 was affectionately known back then as the Trash 80. My first experience at programming was in high school in 1971 or 72 on a paper-roll teletype style terminal, that was connected to a PDP-11 at OMSI (Oregon Museum of Science and Industry). It wasn't even a class, just an after-school activity run by our math teacher, Mr. Tuhy. My masterpiece was a tic-tac-toe program that could always win if it went first, and always at least tie if the human went first. I accidentally deleted it lol.

[–] tal@lemmy.today 1 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Today's users have massive amounts of computer power at their disposal, thanks to sales of billions of desktop and laptop PCs, tablets and smartphones. They're all programmable. Users should be able to do just enough programming to make them work the way they want. Is that too much to ask?

Smartphones -- and to a lesser degree, tablets -- kind of are not a phenomenal programming platform. Yeah, okay, they have the compute power, but most programming environments -- and certainly the ones that I'd consider the best ones -- are text-based, and in 2025, text entry on a touchscreen still just isn't as good as with a physical keyboard. I'll believe that there is room to considerably improve on existing text-entry mechanisms, though I'm skeptical that touchscreen-based text entry is ever going to be at par with keyboard-based text entry.

You can add a Bluetooth keyboard. And it's not essential. But it is a real barrier. If I were going to author Android software, I do not believe that I'd do the authoring on an Android device.

When Dartmouth College launched the Basic language 50 years ago, it enabled ordinary users to write code. Millions did. But we've gone backwards since then, and most users now seem unable or unwilling to create so much as a simple macro

I don't know about this "going backwards" stuff.

I can believe that a higher proportion of personal computer users in 1990 could program to at least some degree than could the proportion of, say, users of Web-browser-capable devices today.

But not everyone in 1990 had a personal computer, and I would venture to say that the group that did probably was not a representative sample of the population. I'd give decent odds that a lower proportion of the population as a whole could program in 1990 than today.

I do think that you could make an argument that the accessibility of a programming environment somewhat-declined for a while, but I don't know about it being monotonically.

It was pretty common, for personal computers around 1980, to ship with some kind of BASIC programming environment. Boot up an Apple II, hit...I forget the key combination, but it'll drop you straight into a ROM-based BASIC programming environment.

After that generation, things got somewhat weaker for a time.

DOS had batch files. I don't recall whether QBasic was standard with the OS. checks it did for a period with MS-DOS, but was a subset of QuickBasic. I don't believe that it was still included by later in the Windows era.

The Mac did not ship with a (free) programming environment.

I think that that was probably about the low point.

GNU/Linux was a wild improvement over this situation.

And widespread Internet availability also helped, as it made it easier to distribute programming environments and tools.

Today, I think that both MacOS and Windows ship with somewhat-more sophisticated programming tools. I'm out of date on MacOS, but last I looked, it had access to the Unix stuff via brew, and probably has a set of MacOS-specific stuff out there that's downloadable. Windows ships with Powershell, and the most-basic edition of Visual Studio can be downloaded gratis.

[–] Blue_Morpho@lemmy.world 0 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Hypercard was free for a while.

Windows 3 shipped with Toolbook (hypercard clone) free for a while.

[–] tal@lemmy.today -1 points 1 month ago

Hypercard was free for a while.

Yeah, and I wrote some stuff in HyperTalk, but IIRC it turned into some sort of Hypercard-the-authoring-environment and Hypercard-the-player split, with the player being redistributable.

kagis

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HyperCard

At the same time HyperCard 2.0 was being developed, a separate group within Apple developed and in 1991 released HyperCard IIGS, a version of HyperCard for the Apple IIGS system. Aimed mainly at the education market, HyperCard IIGS has roughly the same feature set as the 1.x versions of Macintosh HyperCard, while adding support for the color graphics abilities of the IIGS. Although stacks (HyperCard program documents) are not binary-compatible, a translator program (another HyperCard stack) allows them to be moved from one platform to the other.

Then, Apple decided that most of its application software packages, including HyperCard, would be the property of a wholly owned subsidiary called Claris. Many of the HyperCard developers chose to stay at Apple rather than move to Claris, causing the development team to be split. Claris attempted to create a business model where HyperCard could also generate revenues. At first the freely-distributed versions of HyperCard shipped with authoring disabled. Early versions of Claris HyperCard contain an Easter Egg: typing "magic" into the message box converts the player into a full HyperCard authoring environment.[15] When this trick became nearly universal, they wrote a new version, HyperCard Player, which Apple distributed with the Macintosh operating system, while Claris sold the full version commercially. Many users were upset that they had to pay to use software that had traditionally been supplied free and which many considered a basic part of the Mac.

Hmm. Sounds like the interaction was more-complicated than just that.

[–] mindbleach@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 month ago

Programming is alien. It's fundamentally hard to comprehend, because the computer will do exactly what you tell it to, regardless of what you mean. You have to think for the both of you.

[–] GrumpyDuckling@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Name all the bones in your body

[–] MothmanDelorian@lemmy.world 1 points 1 month ago

Surprisingly they're all named "Mike"

[–] urata@lemmy.world 0 points 1 month ago (1 children)

When I was a kid in the 90s I had a PC that came with Windows 3.1 and it had QBasic. I messed around with it a lot. I spent a lot of time reading the built-in documentation.

I remember making a random password generator, a text-based blackjack game, and some "screensavers" that were basically just drawing a bunch of stuff on the screen and then scrolling it off the top by printing blank lines.

It took quite a bit of time to do that pretty basic stuff, so it's really not a surprise to me that most people aren't making computer programs today. Most of anything an average person could hope to program has already been done and made available for free.

[–] ProfessorProteus@lemmy.world 0 points 1 month ago (1 children)

I did basically all those things, or very similar things, in TI-BASIC back in high school. I didn't care that they had already been done countless times; I had a blast figuring out how to make them work.

I dearly wish more people would try making basic programs that are 100% their own creation, even if it's some random string generator. It's more rewarding than they might think!

[–] YerbaYerba@lemm.ee 1 points 1 month ago

Same here. I missed the lecture of many math classes figuring out basic on my ti84+. I mostly wrote simple games. The calculator made it easy to experiment since all the functionality could be found in menus or a button somewhere.

[–] HobbitFoot@thelemmy.club 0 points 1 month ago (1 children)

College computer science courses have had to go back to teaching students what computer files and folders are. A lot of computer programs have simplified themselves as ease of use overtook features as a driving factor for use.

Most people don't know how to program because they don't know the basics of computing.

[–] FizzyOrange@programming.dev 0 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Nonsense. There are way more programmers now than there were in the Windows 3.1/9x era when you couldn't avoid files and folders. Ok more people are exposed to computers in general, but still... Anyone who has the interest to learn isn't going to be stopped by not knowing what file and folders are.

It's like saying people don't become car mechanics because you don't have to hand crank your engine any more.

[–] HobbitFoot@thelemmy.club 0 points 1 month ago (1 children)

It's like saying people don't become car mechanics because you don't have to hand crank your engine any more.

I look at it more as most people don't need to know how to do basic car maintenance because cars and the systems surrounding cars are designed to where you don't need to know how to do basic car maintenance to drive a car.

People can learn to program, but the vast majority don't have to know the basics of how a computer works to use one. Because of that, the vast majority of users aren't going to have the drive to learn to program.

[–] FizzyOrange@programming.dev 2 points 1 month ago

Right but it isn't "the basics of how a computer works" that drives people to learn programming is it?

Nobody says "aha, now that I know what Giles and folders are I will become a programmer".

People become programmers for other reasons:

  • They want to make something (e.g. a game).
  • They are naturally interested in computers.
  • Money.