102

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk

For context Libs on Bsky are passing aroudn this fascists shithead's bullshit book "On Tyranny" as a manual for "resisting authoritarianism" THE CALL IS COMING FROM INSIDE THE HOUSE YOU LIBERAL SHITWIPES!

all 44 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[-] _pi@lemmy.ml 54 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

For all the complaints of "antisemitism" of the past several years, it's amazing how Snyder has been able to walk the double genocide tightrope and still be "in good standing".

My favorite question to ask people is, in which Soviet Republic did the ethnic majority become an ethnic minority as a result of the famine(s) of 1930-1933?

Everyone says Ukraine because they're dummies. It's Kazakhstan, and yet you don't see Westoids clammoring to woke genocide narratives on behalf of Kazakhs. Only Anne Applebaum does in deep psychotic NYT op-ed lore as she has to devise a good explanation of why her ideology is not the exact carbon copy of Putin's ideology with some labels moved around.

Even within Soviet Republics, it's super not clear cut what would constitute a genocide here. You have racism against different nationalities. Plenty of Ukrainians when I was growing up called Kazakhs, aziaty or churki and still do. The USSR itself was very anti-peasantry and anti pastoral/nomadic lifestyle.

If we consider the big evil Russian dictator theory both Stalin and Lenin are on record as saying Russian ethnic tendencies are actually the worst. In the history of evil Soviet dictators there are only 3 Russians: Lenin, Andropov and Gorbachev.

Lastly a lot of these fights typically rely on first mover advantage that's found in all pro-Western chauvinism. "We got to do it because we did it before the magical date when it's considered wrongbad." is literally the excuse used by the West for everything they want to condemn from genocide, to energy use, to national development. Even if there was an active evil Soviet plot to sedentarize the Kazahs and remove them from their traditional way of life, there is not a developed nation on earth that practically supports nomadic lifestyles.

It's honestly not a simple question, and in practice a question that people ask solely for political points. If we call/don't call these famines genocide won't actually get us to stop genocides and famines that are currently happening. It's just propaganda.

[-] Frank@hexbear.net 26 points 1 month ago

You know, you raised something in my mind; The Germans committed the Herero genocide in, what, 1898? Okay, 1904 to 1908. The idea that the Germans needed to look outside for inspiration is preposterous on it's face, they'd already committed genocide in their own colonies.

The conflict between agriculturalists and pastoralists/nomads is such an incredibly deep conflict in human history. Any suggested reading for how Khazaks experienced the USSR?

[-] _pi@lemmy.ml 20 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

You know, you raised something in my mind; The Germans committed the Herero genocide in, what, 1898? Okay, 1904 to 1908. The idea that the Germans needed to look outside for inspiration is preposterous on it’s face, they’d already committed genocide in their own colonies.

The one reason they'd need outside inspiration is that doing a genocide in a colony is a bit different than bringing the empire home. The colonial apparatus is already primed to do violence against the colonized population. The reason they needed inspiration is because a double sized colonization where you colonize the periphery (Westward expansion) and you recolonize the imperial core (Trail of Tears, slavery, population transfers, Jim Crow) at the same time was really an American invention.

The conflict between agriculturalists and pastoralists/nomads is such an incredibly deep conflict in human history. Any suggested reading for how Khazaks experienced the USSR?

Good overview for the Sovietization of Central Asia is

Inside Central Asia by Dilip Hiro

Nomads and Soviet Rule by Alun Thomas is on my reading list but I haven't gotten to it. So I cannot vouch for its quality.

There's not a lot of "friendliness" in portions of this history so you're not gonna get a lot of good feelings but I've heard good things about:

  • The Hungry Steppe -- 1930 famine, it's an anti-Stalin polemic so you have to critically read where Cameron is pushing something that she can't actually back up
  • Atomic Steppe -- How the bomb was developed in Kazakhstan
  • Steppe Dreams -- Post-Soviet studies

In practice a lot of this is really the history of colonial conquest...

Japan's Siberian intervention, 1918-1922. tells the story of Japans attempt at the same region during the same time.

[-] Frank@hexbear.net 12 points 1 month ago

Thank you. : )

[-] Leon_Grotsky@hexbear.net 12 points 1 month ago

There is also Ostsiedlung and the so-called "Germanisation" of western slavic peoples like Wends, Polabians, etc. going back to like the 9th century; this historical record was used by the Nazis for the justification of Lebensraum.

[-] urmums401k@hexbear.net 25 points 1 month ago

It's seriosly annoying, when people will only acknowledge a genocide to say 'communism bad', its like the fascist 'anti sex trafficking' panic-they dont actually care about the victims or want to stop it from happening again, and it's almost worse than a denial

[-] _pi@lemmy.ml 32 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

My favorite stuff to read in genocide studies is when Western academics shiv each other on political grounds.

Norman Naimark is an interesting case. He's a super right wing guy, Hoover Institution, literally Galician parents and all that. Wrote a book called Stalin's Genocides

He's unique because he posits that the definition of genocide should be broadened and one of this hobby horses (that I interestingly enough entertain and mildly agree with) is that kulaks became a targeted class. Which brings up some interesting points like, if I manufacture a class of people that are labeled as enemies, and I just slide those goalposts to be able to push more people into that class does that constitute a genocide? It's a very postmodern proposal to redefine genocide.

Ironically another right wing guy called Michael Ellman does not like Naimarks theory because:

"The liberal interpretation of genocide that Naimark favors is... in line with recent jurisprudence. However, he fails to point out the boomerang effect of such an interpretation. According to a recent book by a U.S. specialist on genocide... the massacres of some of the native Americans by European settlers, the Atlantic Slave Trade, the use of a nuclear bomb against Nagasaki...should all be considered genocides. This would make the United States founded on two genocides and guilty... of more... In view of this boomerang effect, my advice to Western governments is to stick to a strict constructionist interpretation of genocide. Hence, I disagree with Naimark’s wish to classify Stalin’s mass murders as genocide."

It would stain the credibility of the United States.....

Ironically, Snyder and Applebaum (like Naimark) point to the USSR's advocacy for current and specific definition of genocide as the reason that USSR actions don't fall into the legalistic criteria of genocide, they also do not see this potential for blowback. Ellman doesn't even acknowledge things in recent history that would fit the extended definition (which would effectively add all ethnic cleansing into the criterion) such as "Mexican Repatriation".

It's almost like this term is a political football in-as much as it is a descriptor of historic atrocity.

[-] GarbageShoot@hexbear.net 26 points 1 month ago

kulaks became a targeted class

Turns out communists target classes. Weren't they extremely explicit about this? And the pearl-clutching libs then say that "every domestic enemy of the state was called a kulak"

Or do you mean, like, they were all explicitly targeted with death as the only allowable outcome rather than the dissolution of there class? (a number of them were killed either way, of course)

[-] urmums401k@hexbear.net 7 points 1 month ago

Yeah, its not like anyone who matters has ever actually given a shit about genocide, by any definition heretofore proposed.

[-] _pi@lemmy.ml 16 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Yeah fun fact that I just wanted to look it up. Naimark has basically gone on an Israeli podcast and has toed the academic line, about how you can't just destroy Palestinians because you want to. He didn't call it a genocide, he explicitly denied it was a genocide but said it was ethnic cleansing. And he also used the term "the so-called Nakba".

The host by the end of it looks so sad because he really thought he was gonna get this Jewish Genocide Studies scholar to definitively say, YOU CAN TREAT THE PALESTINIANS LIKE DOGS.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qocuOyP4i2g

[-] Frank@hexbear.net 10 points 1 month ago

My understanding is "ethnic cleansing" is a euphemism for genocide with no distinct meaning. It's used to launder certain genocides as "less bad". Is that a fair assessment?

[-] _pi@lemmy.ml 10 points 1 month ago

In terms of a distinct meaning, ethnic cleansing is a descriptor of generally dispossessing a people, where genocide is a descriptor of destroying a people. You can ethnically cleanse people without destroying them.

Genocide itself used in the IR sense is a legal charge according to the genocide convention. Not all ethnic cleansing counts as genocide in the genocide convention.

[-] urmums401k@hexbear.net 6 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Ugh. So many former humans choosing to join a 'protocols of the elders of Zion'/'the turner diaries' crossover LARP, and everyone just keeps kayfabe. Like they can be neutral on this shit.

[-] _pi@lemmy.ml 11 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

everyone just keeps kayfabe. Like they can be neutral on this shit.

TBF this was the "center-right" and polite position in academia all along.

The consensus has been there for a long time.

[-] urmums401k@hexbear.net 7 points 1 month ago

Yeah. How are we doing on that 'western civilization' thing? Any progress?

[-] Frank@hexbear.net 17 points 1 month ago

Some Westerns are adopting bidets and learning to wash their asses. Hope remains, however dim it may be.

[-] HexReplyBot@hexbear.net 2 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:

[-] tripartitegraph@hexbear.net 35 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

I don't think anything will go as hard as Furr's 'Blood Lies: The Evidence that Every Accusation against Joseph Stalin and the Soviet Union in Timothy Snyder's "Bloodlands" Is False'. Say whatever you want about Furr, but his titles crack me up

[-] Frank@hexbear.net 24 points 1 month ago

Real "The Incoherence of the Incoherence" hours.

[-] LeninsBeard@hexbear.net 7 points 1 month ago

Have you seen Furr's press tour for his newest book? It's called "Doo doo head liar: Why every single thing that this absolute LOSER said is wrong"

[-] _pi@lemmy.ml 24 points 1 month ago

This is one of the best takedowns of On Tyranny which is in reality one of those "should have been a blog post" drivel books that I've read:

https://theberkshireedge.com/book-review-an-idiots-guide-to-tyranny-some-thoughts-about-timothys-snyders-on-tyranny/

[-] principalkohoutek@hexbear.net 16 points 1 month ago

My lib mom (who is somewhat well read) loves this fucking hack and this book in particular

[-] Lemmygradwontallowme@hexbear.net 14 points 1 month ago

Idk, Blood Lies?

[-] peeonyou@hexbear.net 12 points 1 month ago

I like wsws even though they're trots

[-] MaeBorowski@hexbear.net 7 points 1 month ago

They have published some real bullshit before, but yeah, when I check in from time to time wsws.org is usually pretty good. Like surprisingly good for Trots.

[-] falgscode@hexbear.net 1 points 1 month ago

must've missed their apologetics for any celebrity accused of SA since woody allen

[-] peeonyou@hexbear.net 1 points 1 month ago

i guess i did miss that

[-] urmums401k@hexbear.net 10 points 1 month ago

Look, nobody's ever written anything about resisting tyranny, doing a revolution, or existing in a world that's kind of your hell. Certainly nothing about fighting fascists.

It's not a new problem, but it's an absolute research orphan.

[-] Lemmygradwontallowme@hexbear.net 15 points 1 month ago

The headline

Timothy Snyder’s Bloodlands: Right-wing propaganda disguised as historical scholarship — Part One The false presentation of the Soviet famine as a “deliberate” policy of mass murder

Your comment

Look, nobody's ever written anything about resisting tyranny, doing a revolution, or existing in a world that's kind of your hell. Certainly nothing about fighting fascists.

It's not a new problem, but it's an absolute research orphan.

Did you respond to the wrong post? Idk how that relates to it...

[-] urmums401k@hexbear.net 9 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

No. OP made the wrong post.

[-] Lemmygradwontallowme@hexbear.net 12 points 1 month ago

OP's original post is obviously about Bloodlands and how Bsky libs are praising it... I don't understand what yer talkin' of?

[-] urmums401k@hexbear.net 15 points 1 month ago

I'm saying its impossible that I'm wrong or misclicked and replied to the wrong thing; it is the context that is incorrect.

[-] Lemmygradwontallowme@hexbear.net 6 points 1 month ago

Yeah, maybe he put the wrong link

this post was submitted on 20 Nov 2024
102 points (99.0% liked)

chapotraphouse

13604 readers
762 users here now

Banned? DM Wmill to appeal.

No anti-nautilism posts. See: Eco-fascism Primer

Slop posts go in c/slop. Don't post low-hanging fruit here.

founded 4 years ago
MODERATORS