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Muslims: please dont depict Prophet Muhammad, its offensive, thank you Europeans: (hexbear.net)
submitted 4 years ago* (last edited 4 years ago) by thelasthoxhaist@hexbear.net to c/the_dunk_tank@hexbear.net
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here is the link, its locked by the way beware of the quasi-fascists that are the western europeans

edit: its really easy to attract the islamophobes in this chat

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[–] cum_drinker69@hexbear.net 1 points 4 years ago (1 children)

What i find amusing and illustrative in this argument is replacing "draw Muhammad" with "saying the n-word" and it being the same fucking argument.

ok look i literally do not give a fuck what is offensive to your religion, ~~drawing a picture of some guy~~ saying the n-word is not immoral and anyone who suggests that it is can eat my entire ass

Basically we've got a lot of americans on this site who rightfully feel guilt at kicking disadvantaged people in their own country, but fuck off about caring about the disadvantaged people in other white imperialist countries, they can suck my dick if they don't like it.

[–] foxodroid@hexbear.net 0 points 4 years ago (2 children)

How the hell is satirising a highly questionable religious figure the same as the n-word now? We fans of religious authority now?

[–] qublics@hexbear.net 1 points 4 years ago* (last edited 4 years ago) (1 children)

If you wish to undermine religious authority that means reducing the number of religious adherents.
These divisive tactics with insults, misrepresentations, and minority oppression are not effective towards those ends.

Islamophobia is playing into our enemies hands; they rule via divide and conquer.
As leftists what we should aim for is mutual understanding and cooperation.

We want religious (and non-religious) people to become more accepting, reasonable, and less reactionary.
Insults only put people into a defensive position. And this only empowers religious authorities.

When people publicly insult Mohamed, where do Muslims turn to for support and solidarity?

You have to be more pragmatic about this. There is no slippery slope when your position is rooted in utilitarian concerns.
If freedom of expression were meaningfully at risk then we could simply pivot our tactics.
Those who insult Islam have done nothing wrong; but those insulting Islam to hurt and marginalize Muslims within society are no better than any other bigot.

Terrorist attacks in response to such expression is already systematically opposed, so what more do you want?
Mosques and Muslim communities are already under surveillance throughout Europe.

Freedom of expression does not mean we have to celebrate every time somebody says something that offends others.
If anything, freedom expression used in this way and on such a scale, causing violence and social unrest, is what puts freedom of expression seriously at risk.

If I thought that via Mohamed cartoons within three years we would have millions more ex-Muslims; then absolutely publish away.
But this same shit has been going on for over a decade and I don't think it's working.

[–] foxodroid@hexbear.net 1 points 4 years ago* (last edited 4 years ago)

Those who insult Islam have done nothing wrong; but those insulting Islam to hurt and marginalize Muslims within society are no better than any other bigot.

this sounds like a catch-22. if anti-Muslim criticism is indistinguishable from well intentioned one then it sounds easy to just accuse everyone of being anti-muslim.

Terrorist attacks in response to such expression is already systematically opposed, so what more do you want?

i want criticism of religion to be normalized.

If I thought that via Mohamed cartoons within three years we would have millions more ex-Muslims; then absolutely publish away. But this same shit has been going on for over a decade and I don’t think it’s working.

But it is. 10 years ago you wouldn't even hear of the concept of atheism or LGBT people, you'd never hear of people criticizing Islam at all and now you see people on TV do it. Now you see scholars scurry to prove Aisha was 18 when she had sex with Mohamed, declaring sexual harassment to be a sin and arguing maybe *don't * kills the gays and the converts. Normalizing topics works, of course there will be resistance. Sometimes violent but ultimately it works. Dawkins gets a lot of well deserved flack but his edgelord book and common public appearances did reach here, all the way in the Arab world. His book on atheism, got translated unofficially and downloaded over 10 million times from one site.

[–] cum_drinker69@hexbear.net 1 points 4 years ago (2 children)

Ah we're calling bigotry "satire" now, that's clever.

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[–] Amorphous@hexbear.net 0 points 4 years ago (2 children)

ok look i literally do not give a fuck what is offensive to your religion, drawing a picture of some guy is not immoral and anyone who suggests that it is can eat my entire ass

i dont care if you're religious, but that apathy ends the second you start asking me to follow your dumb fucking religion's dumb fucking rules. fuck off

[–] thelasthoxhaist@hexbear.net 1 points 4 years ago (1 children)

looks like asking to not draw Muhammad is to much for cringe zoners like you

[–] Amorphous@hexbear.net 1 points 4 years ago (1 children)

asking me to follow religious rules is absolutely too much, yes.

[–] thelasthoxhaist@hexbear.net 0 points 4 years ago* (last edited 4 years ago) (3 children)

so if a japanese asks you to take of your shoes when entering his home, are you gonna call him an asshole too, to you basic decency is opression, and you want anyone from the global southto call you a comrade, radlib

[–] moonlake@hexbear.net 1 points 4 years ago

The difference is that if you enter a Japanese person's house in shoes, it won't result in a random dude getting his fucking head cut off lol.

Here's what I don't understand, if someone says that something is offensive in their religion I'm obviously going to respect that because I'm not an asshole. But if they say that something is a crime in their religion and the punishment is getting beheaded then I'm super not cool with that. They are imposing on me the rules of their religion, which I'm not a part of.

It's the same way with Christianity and abortion or homosexuality. Everyone agrees that it's not cool that Christians are imposing their morality on the rest of the world, why is it different with Islam? That's an honest question, correct me if I'm being a lib.

[–] penguin_von_doom@hexbear.net 0 points 4 years ago* (last edited 4 years ago) (1 children)

What does taking your shoes off when entering someone's home has to do with their race? Why would you keep your shoes on, unless specifically asked in the first place?

[–] thelasthoxhaist@hexbear.net 1 points 4 years ago

because its a respect thing (japanese tradition) just like not drawing muhammad is for muslims

[–] Amorphous@hexbear.net 0 points 4 years ago (1 children)

thats about cleanliness not religion, you people are fucking stupid

[–] thelasthoxhaist@hexbear.net 1 points 4 years ago (1 children)

its a traditions you dense idiot, stop being such a western chauvinist and accept not everyone country is a parasitic imperialist country based in western supremacy

[–] Amorphous@hexbear.net 0 points 4 years ago (2 children)

literally what the fuck are you talking about you fucking fool

"take off your shoes or stay out of my house" completely valid. the reason is cleanliness. theres nothing wrong with that. similarly, "dont draw muhammad in my house or go away" thats fine too

"dont draw muhammad in your own house" is fucking absurd and it's disgusting that you support it. its like a christian telling you not to have gay sex in your house because it's offensive to their religion

fuck all the way off, your religion does not have power over my fucking life

[–] hogposting@hexbear.net 1 points 4 years ago (1 children)

Why would you ever draw Muhammad? About the only reason anyone ever does is in an attempt to deeply insult an enormous number of people. That kind of "fuck you I do what I want" mentality doesn't garner much sympathy from me. Having a reasonable amount of respect for your fellow human beings (i.e., not doing something you would never otherwise do specifically to piss them off) is something we need more of.

Yeah, you're free to yell the N-word at the top of your lungs in public. Yeah, if a black person decides to beat you to death for it they're in the wrong, too. But my sympathy for you in that situation is limited because maybe you shouldn't be an absolute piece of shit just because you technically can.

[–] Amorphous@hexbear.net 0 points 4 years ago (1 children)

Why would you ever draw Muhammad?

i have never had any desire to do so and i probably never will, but it is not immoral to do so and i have every right if i did want to

[–] hogposting@hexbear.net 1 points 4 years ago (1 children)

i have every right if i did want to

Yes, that's exactly the "fuck you I do what I want" mentality I was criticizing. That makes you a massive piece of shit, even if you're technically free to do it.

You shouldn't be a massive piece of shit, and you certainly aren't accomplishing anything if you choose to be one. You should be a decent human being.

[–] Amorphous@hexbear.net 0 points 4 years ago (1 children)

ok, imagine for a second that i tell you that, according to my religion, it is wrong to wear red on tuesdays. wearing red on tuesdays is a completely benign act im sure we can both agree, there is nothing wrong with doing so. but ill be offended if you do it.

are you an asshole for deciding to wear red on tuesday? no. of fucking course not. you're also not racist, or a lib, or a chud, or a reactionary, or any of the shit im being called in these comments.

[–] hogposting@hexbear.net 1 points 4 years ago (2 children)

How common is wearing red? How common is drawing a picture of Muhammad?

The reasonableness of the request is in large part determined by how burdensome it is to fulfill.

[–] oralcumshot@hexbear.net 0 points 4 years ago* (last edited 4 years ago) (1 children)

The teacher who was beheaded did not draw the prophet. The elderly woman and man who were beheaded in the church in Nice did not draw the prophet.

[–] hogposting@hexbear.net 1 points 4 years ago

Note that a few comments up I've already said killing someone over this is wrong. No one is arguing that people should get the death penalty for drawing Muhammad. The argument is that you're a huge asshole if you do, because there's no reason to do it besides pissing people off.

[–] Amorphous@hexbear.net 0 points 4 years ago (1 children)

its not about whether the request is reasonable, its about whether you're an asshole or racist or whatever for refusing. and it is very very easy for you to never wear red again in your life, so surely just not wearing red for one day of the week is not that unreasonable?

if not wearing red on tuesdays were a muslim tradition, you absolutely would be calling me out the exact same way for saying i dont intend to follow that tradition

[–] hogposting@hexbear.net 1 points 4 years ago* (last edited 4 years ago) (1 children)

But I wear red plenty now, so it would at least be somewhat of a burden to remember not to wear red on Tuesdays. It's not a burden at all to not draw Muhammed because I never draw him anyway.

It's the going out of one's way to be as offensive as possible that makes this asshole behavior. No one's ordinary routine is being disrupted, no one's being even slightly inconvenienced.

[–] Amorphous@hexbear.net 0 points 4 years ago (1 children)

What if you never wear red but, upon being told you're racist if you wear red on tuesdays, you decide to start wearing red on tuesdays? Does this circularly make you racist?

People don't like being told not to do harmless things because of other people's religious or personal beliefs and will often do those things as a result of being told not to do them because, again, they are harmless things that should not be stigmatized. Drawing pictures of any human who has ever lived or will ever live is a harmless activity which should not get you called racist or an asshole. It doesn't matter if this is just one guy and you could draw any of the other guys who have ever lived, there is no reason not to draw him.

[–] hogposting@hexbear.net 1 points 4 years ago* (last edited 4 years ago)

What if you never wear red but, upon being told you’re racist if you wear red on tuesdays, you decide to start wearing red on tuesdays? Does this circularly make you racist?

If I never did something -- let's call it drawing a picture of Muhammad -- but I started doing it specifically to piss off a group of people my country has demonized and killed by the millions, yes, I would be an enormous piece of shit.

[–] Saif@hexbear.net 0 points 4 years ago (1 children)

no one has ever said "don't draw Muhammad in your own house"??? where the hell are you getting this from. nobody is asking you to not draw Muhammad in private, that's absurd and irrelevant to the question. this whole discourse is about western reactionaries intentionally enflaming the situation by drawing Muhammad outwardly, usually in racist big-nosed depictions i might add.

[–] Amorphous@hexbear.net 0 points 4 years ago (1 children)

this whole discourse is about western reactionaries intentionally enflaming the situation by drawing Muhammad outwardly

a muslim's right to tell a person what they can and can not draw based on religious rules end at their own doorstep. i dont care if they're drawing muhammad and then printing it on flags and flying those flags on every street corner in the entire world, it literally does not matter and anyone who gets upset at them for it is responsible for their own feelings, because no one has any obligation to respect rules specific to their religion

[–] Saif@hexbear.net 0 points 4 years ago* (last edited 4 years ago) (1 children)

so once again, "drawing Muhammad in your own home" is not the question at hand here, you accept this. now you need to accept that nobody gives a shit about questioning the "morality" of drawing Muhammad in a vacuum just as no leftist with half a brain thinks the literal letter structure of the n-word is morally evil on its own. we're talking about cultural contexts. and just as it's morally wrong to go out of your way to be racist towards black people, it's morally wrong to go out of your way to be racist towards Muslims. and it takes a bizarre amount of effort in this context as well, i mean you are arguing for the right for people to make elaborate art just to be racist.

[–] Amorphous@hexbear.net 0 points 4 years ago (1 children)

there is literally nothing racist about drawing muhammad as a statement that you dont respect religious guidelines, just in the same way there's nothing racist about waving a pride flag in a christian's face. when people try to impose their religious rules on you and you decide to go out of your way to disrespect those rules, that isnt fucking racist.

these people the OP is talking about are almost certainly racist, yes, but it is not racist to draw muhammad

[–] Saif@hexbear.net 1 points 4 years ago* (last edited 4 years ago) (1 children)

muslims are a race, and its racist to draw muhammad now, read the room my friend. this is the way of things. stop trying to conflate everything under the western conception of "religion" as if you can approach them all in the exact same way, you imperialist fuck. come to each one humbly with your head bowed, and attempt to learn something new about a different culture, for once in your fucking life.

[–] Amorphous@hexbear.net 0 points 4 years ago (14 children)

muslims are a race, and its racist to draw muhammad now

what the fuck is wrong with you lmao this is absurd

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[–] hogposting@hexbear.net 1 points 4 years ago (1 children)

i literally do not give a fuck what is offensive

eat my entire ass

fuck off

Civility at the expense of accomplishing something real is bullshit, but man, you're not going to get very far with very many people if you're just an outright asshole.

[–] Amorphous@hexbear.net 1 points 4 years ago (1 children)

Do you understand how traumatic it is to grow up in an environment ruled, socially and legally, by religion? It's fucking horrifying. And then to see people who are supposed to be supporting you calling you racist, a chud, an asshole, etc for daring to suggest that religion shouldn't control the life of a non-religious person? That's terrifying too. I'm lashing out because this is truly a terrible, disgusting thing that people here are thoughtlessly supporting.

[–] Esoteir@hexbear.net 1 points 4 years ago (2 children)

religion shouldn’t control the life of a non-religious person?

yes, the evil muslims are preventing you from drawing muhammad which is something that non-religious people normally want to do on a regular basis

[–] Rev@hexbear.net 1 points 4 years ago

So if no one is preventing anyone from drawing caricatures why was showing a caricature in a class explicitly dealing with religious indoctrination punished? By death, no less.

[–] thelasthoxhaist@hexbear.net 1 points 4 years ago (5 children)

He is from Alamaba, famous islamic state

[–] Funnyleaf@hexbear.net 1 points 4 years ago

al-Abama

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