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cross-posted from: https://feddit.nl/post/16246531

I feel like we need to talk about Lemmy's massive tankie censorship problem. A lot of popular lemmy communities are hosted on lemmy.ml. It's been well known for a while that the admins/mods of that instance have, let's say, rather extremist and onesided political views. In short, they're what's colloquially referred to as tankies. This wouldn't be much of an issue if they didn't regularly abuse their admin/mod status to censor and silence people who dissent with their political beliefs and for example, post things critical of China, Russia, the USSR, socialism, ...

As an example, there was a thread today about the anniversary of the Tiananmen Massacre. When I was reading it, there were mostly posts critical of China in the thread and some whataboutist/denialist replies critical of the USA and the west. In terms of votes, the posts critical of China were definitely getting the most support.

I posted a comment in this thread linking to "https://archive.ph/2020.07.12-074312/https://imgur.com/a/AIIbbPs" (WARNING: graphical content), which describes aspects of the atrocities that aren't widely known even in the West, and supporting evidence. My comment was promptly removed for violating the "Be nice and civil" rule. When I looked back at the thread, I noticed that all posts critical of China had been removed while the whataboutist and denialist comments were left in place.

This is what the modlog of the instance looks like:

Definitely a trend there wouldn't you say?

When I called them out on their one sided censorship, with a screenshot of the modlog above, I promptly received a community ban on all communities on lemmy.ml that I had ever participated in.

Proof:

So many of you will now probably think something like: "So what, it's the fediverse, you can use another instance."

The problem with this reasoning is that many of the popular communities are actually on lemmy.ml, and they're not so easy to replace. I mean, in terms of content and engagement lemmy is already a pretty small place as it is. So it's rather pointless sitting for example in /c/linux@some.random.other.instance.world where there's nobody to discuss anything with.

I'm not sure if there's a solution here, but I'd like to urge people to avoid lemmy.ml hosted communities in favor of communities on more reasonable instances.

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[-] Dasus@lemmy.world 26 points 1 day ago

One of the mods over there is a Russian who refuses to answer whether he's pro-Russian or not, says Russian propaganda doesn't exist, pretends to be American while intensely engaging in American threads, denies Uighur genocide, etc etc etc.

https://lemmy.world/u/davel@lemmy.ml

https://lemmygrad.ml/u/davel

He has some older account where there was Russian being used but I think he may have deleted it or I just can't be arsed to look enough rn.

Anyway, one of the clearest pro-Russian trolls I've seen. Lemmy.ml is full of them, I don't know why lemmy.world federates with them.

[-] Rhoeri@lemmy.world 4 points 1 day ago

Knew exactly who you were taking about before I even saw the links.

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[-] socsa@piefed.social 49 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Honestly I think the .ml folks have shown themselves to be such zealots that they should be considered a potential security threat to the broader fediverse.

The more places defederate from them, the more opportunity and initiative there will be for alternatives to their largest communities to grow.

[-] finitebanjo@lemmy.world 22 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

One of the problems is that Lemmy.ml is literally run by some of the people who developed Lemmy and it's one of the few instances on https://join-lemmy.org/instances and the one with the highest number of users listed there with the exception of lemmynsfw.

[-] imaqtpie@lemmy.myserv.one 15 points 1 day ago

It also has less users than sh.itjust.works and lemm.ee. And way less compared to lemmy.world but I guess they aren't linked on the joinlemmy site for some reason

[-] WanderingVentra@lemm.ee 6 points 1 day ago

It was removed from it to avoid over centralization on the fediverse. It already has like 80% of users

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[-] Gammelfisch@lemmy.world 20 points 1 day ago

My post criticizing China's high-speed rail network was yanked. I was surprised and immediately thought of Reddit.

[-] JeeBaiChow@lemmy.world 4 points 1 day ago

Same. Their SCS incursion and claiming it as their own.

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[-] secret300@lemmy.sdf.org 33 points 1 day ago
[-] EatATaco@lemm.ee 14 points 1 day ago

Read the post?

[-] OpenStars@discuss.online 10 points 1 day ago

Genuine question: HOW though?!? I've user-blocked the entire instance, yet I see those comments basically everywhere I go, plus they used to not be able to reply to me and have a notification sent to me, but now on 0.19.5 that seems to have been un-done. In no way is a user-block like a personal defederation.

Also, fully 100% (not making this up) of everyone that I have told Lemmy about irl has said that this issue is why they refused to join the Fediverse. As the number of alt accounts goes up (some of them mine) yet the total number remains mostly constant, that spells doom for us eventually.

And it is not fair to the users of lemmy.ml either, for the rest of us to see the instance they come from and immediately brace ourselves for an onslaught - thereby potentially misinterpreting what they say, just b/c their fellows are so arrogant and insensitive and we have come to expect that from them.

The whole "just ignore the cancer and it will go away" approach leaves much to be desired, imho. Feel free to do as you please, but that's not what I am talking about: you asked, and as a result now you know some (certainly not all) of the reasons why others may not wish to do the same.

[-] halm@leminal.space 172 points 1 day ago

Just to weigh in here with a bit of political nuance — "tankies" are certainly defined by their leftist politics, but moreso by their apologist defense of regimes that more or less transparently use socialist or communist maxims as a cover for state capitalism or straight out autocracy.

Tankies may be the loudest voices to claim themselves Marxist or socialist, but please don't mistake them as actually representing those ideologies truthfully or completely. Personally, I see tankies as more indebted to a cold war-style school of Soviet dogma transplanted to current autocracies. Marx and Trotsky would have rolled their eyes at either.

[-] slaacaa@lemmy.world 65 points 1 day ago

Yes, I hate to be “no true Scotsman”, but they are not actually leftists, just fan of a few dictatorships, some of which claim or used to claim to be socialist.

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[-] muculent@lemmy.world 7 points 1 day ago

These are just my thoughts based on what I've read so far. Do what you will with it. This is just my general advice.

If you like a community on an instance, make friends on it. If you network with enough individuals that feel the same way about a community that you do, fork that community onto a new instance and carry on. I see others weighing in on too much control, not enough control, defederate, remove moderator or admin control from individuals that censor, ban, on lean one direction over another. You'll find these power dynamics are more prevalent or less prevalent depending on the instance you're on or communities your partipate in. If you feel strongly enough about it, be the change you want to see and determine what best course of action you should take that is within your power. Whatever you choose I hope you find or potentially create a community or instance that works best for you.

[-] fuckingkangaroos@lemm.ee 72 points 1 day ago

I wonder how many good, reasonable people have checked out Lemmy and seen all the CCP/Kremlin propaganda then just left.

[-] maxenmajs@lemmy.world 36 points 1 day ago

I was close to leaving. At first I'd been given the impression that "liberal" is a dirty word on Lemmy. It helps that PSAs like this one routinely appear on other instances to inform newcomers. Just keep spreading the knowledge and let it be known that everybody should block those communities.

[-] aasatru@kbin.earth 26 points 1 day ago

I often see people say that pointing new users towards instances with a lax attitude to defederation is a good idea. I kind of understand the rationale, but I'm not sure I agree. Pointing new users to an instance federated with Hexbear seems to me to be a terrible idea.

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[-] OpenStars@discuss.online 28 points 1 day ago

Personally I am sitting at 100% of the people who I mention Lemmy to irl doing so. Not only that, but they actually gave me dirty looks and admonished me for even so much as mentioning it. It is easy for us who have blocked such to forget but... the day-1 experience for someone new can be quite shocking. e.g. just search for the word "guillotine", preferably from an instance you are not logged into, to see all the calls for literal and actual (and not joking... not really) murder of people who participate in such wildly anti-communist practices as ... "have bank accounts".

Though maybe X is just as bad these days? I dunno, I never had an account even when it was Twitter:-D. In any case, it is grandfathered into the public consciousness, and the devil you know... you know? :-P

to see all the calls for literal and actual (and not joking… not really) murder of people who participate in such wildly anti-communist practices as … “have bank accounts”.

I'm gonna need a source for this, that sounds too insane to be believable, and i've never seen anything like that.

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[-] SorteKanin@feddit.dk 13 points 1 day ago

I mean, lead them to instances that defederate hexbear for starters? Seems reasonable anyway.

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[-] Draconic_NEO@lemmy.world 28 points 1 day ago

“So what, it’s the fediverse, you can use another instance.”

Dismissal of this type of criticism by just telling people to use another instance or saying "fediverse is decentralized" is unproductive, and honestly should be called out as harmful because it ignores the fact that instances when they become large enough and centralized enough, carry weight and can be extremely problematic like shown here.

A big part of dealing with these types of problems is to make people aware of them, another one is to deal with it at the instance level by defederating the problematic instances and cutting off the communities so that network effect doesn't continue to rear its ugly head. Just creating new communities isn't enough, if it was this wouldn't be the problem that it is. When people tell others to stop complaining and dismiss the criticism because the fediverse is decentralized it seems like they either don't understand the issue, or they would just rather it not be addressed.

So while many people would prefer we just leave well enough alone, that's not condusive to these problems being dealt with, people need to talk about them, and action needs to be taken.

[-] MyOpinion@lemm.ee 48 points 1 day ago

Yes avoid .ml and hexbear and life is mostly good here.

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[-] db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com 42 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

When I called them out on their one sided censorship, with a screenshot of the modlog above, I promptly received a community ban on all communities on lemmy.ml that I had ever participated in.

Note, that just means you were sitebanned. This is how the software displays this.

Also !yepowertrippinbastards@lemmy.dbzer0.com

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[-] helloworld55@lemm.ee 18 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Frankly, who cares? If you don't want to see or participate in tankie propoganda, then don't. People point out that lemmy.ml is the hub for a lot of communities, so it isn't reasonable to switch to another instance. And then they bring up communities like !Linux@lemmy.ml Guess what, Linux isn't meant to be a hub for political discourse, and for the most part, it isn't. Use lemmy.ml how you want to use it, and if you want to participate in other political leanings, go to a different instance. No one is really stopping you, and that's the whole idea of the fediverse. And there really isn't any value lost, because this isn't a "choose one and only one" situation. You've got all of the fediverse at your fingertips

So this came off a bit abrasive. But the point I want to convey is that if you want to have deep/heated political discourse, either do that on a community (and instance) suitable for it, or use an account specifically for political discussion. I think it helps everyone. The mods can referee communities with more clear boundaries, the lurkers/users don't need to worry about political debates when looking up tech support or whatever, and you (the reader/political dissident) can still enjoy your discussions with less worry about being randomly banned.

[-] bear@slrpnk.net 10 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Use lemmy.ml how you want to use it, and if you want to participate in other political leanings, go to a different instance. No one is really stopping you, and that's the whole idea of the fediverse. And there really isn't any value lost, because this isn't a "choose one and only one" situation. You've got all of the fediverse at your fingertips.

Until you make the mistake of replying with the wrong kind of comment to the wrong sub, and get banned from the entire instance and lose the ability to post on many of the largest subs on this side of the fediverse. Or maybe they just see you out and about and decide to ban you on sight because they don't like what you said. There's nothing stopping that.

Admin overreach and abuse is a major issue for the fediverse because it affects more than just the user in question. Admins of large instances get to decide who has access to the users and communities on their instances, and very often the users of the instance aren't even aware of the actions taken on their behalf. Mastodon recently implemented a notification for when blocks and defederation remove your follows or followers, and this is a great first step. Users deserve to know when they are impacted by decisions such as these.

I love the fediverse and want to see it thrive, so we need to stop putting our heads in the sand on this issue. It's always discussed as if it's an issue with a few problematic instances rather than the systemic issue in need of a solution that is is. Admins need the tools to protect their instances from real abuse, but we need to balance that with the right of the users to know what's going on and not be unfairly deprived of the social aspect of this social media experiment, especially without knowing.

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this post was submitted on 20 Oct 2024
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