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The smart(shit)ification of TVs pisses me off. (beehaw.org)

submitted 8 months ago by chahk@beehaw.org to c/technology@beehaw.org

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I absolutely hate "smart" TVs! You can't even buy a quality "dumb" panel anymore. I can't convince the rest of my family and friends that the only things those smarts bring are built-in obsolescence, ads, and privacy issues.

I make it a point to NEVER connect my new 2022 LG C2 to the Internet, as any possible improvements from firmware updates will be overshadowed by garbage like ads in the UI, removal of existing features (warning: reddit link), privacy violations, possible attack vectors, non-existent security, and constant data breaches of the manufacturers that threaten to expose every bit of personal data that they suck up. Not to mention increased sluggishness after tons of unwanted "improvements" are stuffed into it over the years, as the chipset ages and can no longer cope.

I'd much rather spend a tenth of the price of my TV on a streaming box (Roku, Shield TV, etc.) and replace those after similar things happen to them in a few years. For example, the display of my OG 32-inch Sony Google TV from 2010 ($500) still works fine, but the OS has long been abandoned by both Sony and Google, and since 2015-16 even the basic things like YouTube and Chrome apps don't work anymore. Thank goodness I can set the HDMI port as default start-up, so I don't ever need to see the TV's native UI, and a new Roku Streaming Stick ($45) does just fine on this 720p panel. Plus, I'm not locked into the Roku ecosystem. If they begin (continue?) enshitifying their products, there are tons of other options available at similar price.

Most people don't replace their TVs every couple of years. Hell, my decade old 60-inch Sharp Aquos 1080p LCD TV that I bought for $2200 back in 2011 still works fine, and I only had to replace the streamer that's been driving it twice during all this time. Sony Google TV Box -> Nvidia Shield TV 2015 -> Nvidia Shield TV 2019. I plan to keep it in my basement until it dies completely before replacing it. The Shield TV goes to the LG C2 so that I never have to see LG's craptastic UI.

Sorry, just felt the need to vent. Would be very interested in reading community's opinions on this topic.

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[-] dingus@lemmy.ml 128 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

You actually can buy quality dumb TVs, but you have to do the legwork and do research on what are often referred to as "commercial displays." I see them everywhere in businesses for ads and showing the menu. They're sometimes a little pricier, but they're usually built a little "beefier" too, as they're expected to deal with more rough usage in like a restaurant context.

However, the other solution is the one you've already mentioned where you never plug the Smart TV into the internet, and instead bypass the "smart" on the TV with your own streaming boxes.

I think as more people realize there is a market for dumb TVs, you'll start to see that market grow more and more until they no longer just "commercial displays." Just gotta get enough people buying them and not buying Smart TVs.

[-] notfromhere@lemmy.one 55 points 8 months ago

I think if enough people never gave them Internet access, the manufacturers would start adding in cellular modems to ensure they get the data flowing (that is, data on your viewing habits and sending you ads).

[-] beefcat@beehaw.org 39 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

Having worked in this field, I can tell you how it usually operates: You want the most data for the least amount of investment. As soon as your operational costs start to eat into your already thin margins, the equation falls apart.

Complex solutions designed to capture data from that 1-3% of users who actively avoid it end up costing a lot more money than their data is actually worth. In order to make this particular solution work, you need to make enough money selling whatever tiny amount of data you get from those 1-3% of users to cover the cost of putting a cellular modem in all of your TVs plus the ongoing cost of paying various regional cellular networks to deliver that data to you. You are likely tripling or quadrupling the total cost of your data collection operation and all you have to show for it is a rounding error. And that is before we factor in the fact that these users likely aren't using the built in streaming apps, so the quality of the data you get from them is below average.

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[-] thejml@lemm.ee 35 points 8 months ago

I feel like the market is only going to grow in the top end. Audio/videophiles sort of areas with large, high quality, top end feature sets.

The low end tends to be partly subsidized by the “smart” features. Think TVs that show ads in the menu, or Amazon or Google screens that want you to use their services because it’s “easy” and they’re “right there” so maybe people will subscribe. Couple that with the “feature” that it’s already built in so it saves you an extra box/purchase for people who want cheap TVs, and I don’t see it going away anytime soon.

[-] tiramichu@lemm.ee 38 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

Exactly this.

Manufacturers are NOT INTERESTED in selling low-cost dumb TVs when they can sell smart TVs and get long-term returns. They are even willing to sell the TVs at cost because they will monetise later with ads and selling your data.

Manufacturers don't want you to have a dumb TV, they want everyone to go smart - which is part of why business-targetted dumb panels are priced higher - to disincentivise regular end-customers from buying.

[-] brihuang95@sopuli.xyz 12 points 8 months ago

oh...is that why all these nice smart TVs are so affordable these days?! damn!!

[-] tiramichu@lemm.ee 10 points 8 months ago

Normal manufacturing efficiencies and cost reduction is surely the biggest reason they are cheaper now but it's absolutely a factor.

So many companies in so many industries are trying to move from being product companies (make money selling a thing) to being service companies (make money from subscriptions, user data and other monetisation) and I'm doing my damnedest to keep away from any of it.

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[-] beefcat@beehaw.org 27 points 8 months ago

They aren't very good though. They are durable, but usually expensive and missing a lot of features you might actually want for that price tag. For example, I've yet to find any OLED "commercial displays" that support Dolby Vision, VRR, and eARC.

It's way cheaper and easier to just buy the TV you want and not connect it to your wifi.

[-] shininghero@kbin.social 14 points 8 months ago

Computer monitors should work too, and are more readily available. Just dig through the business oriented monitors and ignore the gaming ones, as cable providers aren't really going to have anything that can take advantage of >60 fps display rates.

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[-] Banzai51@midwest.social 11 points 8 months ago

The other option is to buy the smart TV, turn off the networking, and hook it up to a Shield, Apple TV, or Roku. All those box makers are going to support the devices longer than TV manufacturers, and the streaming apps can't ignore them.

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[-] Frederic@beehaw.org 10 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

Last time I looked for commercial dumb TV, a SHARP was like $4000 for a 65" 1080p or something :-/

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[-] beefcat@beehaw.org 43 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

Is it just me or is it really fuckin' easy to not connect your TV to the internet?

I've hated "Smart TVs" for a decade now, but I solved my problem by just buying a set top streaming box (Apple TV, Nvidia Shield, etc) and leaving my TV off my WiFi.

[-] Rocketpoweredgorilla@lemmy.ca 35 points 8 months ago

Some smart tvs's will whine incessantly about not having the internet.

Thankfully mine (Philips) only bitched about it for about a week, and gave up. Now the only real complaint I have with it is that it takes forever to boot, considering it has to fire up android after it's been off.

[-] beefcat@beehaw.org 22 points 8 months ago

LG doesn't do this. They also have the good sense to allow firmware updates via USB. Which is great, because turning on WiFi long enough to install an update fills the home screen with junk.

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[-] ono@lemmy.ca 28 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

Is it just me or is it really fuckin’ easy to not connect your TV to the internet?

I prefer not to reward corporations by buying equipment with built-in spyware.

(Also, "easy to not connect" depends on whether the TV nags you, or disables features, or uses any open wi-fi it finds, or includes a cellular or mesh modem.)

[-] beefcat@beehaw.org 10 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

You're just giving the same companies even more money when you buy their much more expensive "dumb" digital signage products.

Nobody's been able to show me a TV that actually does those other things you suggest. If one did, I wouldn't buy it, but I won't base my current pruchasing decisions on hypothetical future products.

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[-] doctorcrimson@lemmy.today 42 points 8 months ago

Back in 2019 I wanted a nice LED screen with high resistance to screen burn but the only economic option was a Samsung Smart TV.

I actually ended up getting it, ordering a custom mount for the ARM Chip, and using an input method on the chip that makes it run Java natively so that I could make the Smart TV drop it's firmware onto a USB and from there I could modify it, since it was just running a version of Linux.

So that's the story of how I un-smarted my TV. Get fucked, Samsung.

[-] Grippler@feddit.dk 26 points 8 months ago

What a fucking ridiculous workaround that's completely unavailable to the regular consumer...fuck Samsung (and the industry in general) for this approach.

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[-] theodewere@kbin.social 39 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

all cars are headed there too.. so very soon you won't be able to get news or transportation without someone else's permission..

[-] conditional_soup@lemm.ee 29 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

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[-] dingus@lemmy.ml 11 points 8 months ago

I mean you have technically always needed a drivers license to drive which I would classify as "needing someone else's permission."

The bus on the other hand?

[-] nullPointer@programming.dev 11 points 8 months ago

need permisson for the bus too. "exact change only!!"

[-] FfaerieOxide@kbin.social 8 points 8 months ago

I mean you have technically always needed a drivers license to drive

No you don't. They still work even if you don't have one.

Hell, the keys turn in the ignition even if you're drunk.

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[-] shiveyarbles@beehaw.org 32 points 8 months ago

Smart devices are basically data sniffers scooping up any info about you and your family, your habits,. They watch network traffic, listen to your conversations, and record video,. I'll stick to dumb devices thanks.

[-] jamiehs@lemmy.ml 24 points 8 months ago

Sony Bravia models now give you an option to make it a dumb TV as part of the out of the box experience. It’s the first question they ask you when you power it on.

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[-] PelicanPersuader@beehaw.org 22 points 8 months ago

I got a display signage TV. Totally dumb. The only app it has is YouTube and that's optional. I don't even have the internet hooked up to it. Works fine for gaming and occasionally streaming via other devices.

[-] JakenVeina@lemm.ee 9 points 8 months ago

Where do you even get something like that?

[-] PelicanPersuader@beehaw.org 22 points 8 months ago

I got mine through Amazon. Samsung makes the cheapest ones I've found. Just search for something like "samsung commercial TV". They're generally a little more expensive than your ad/data harvesting-supported TVs but if you value your privacy and longevity of your devices, it's worth it.

[-] ChaoticNeutralCzech@feddit.de 10 points 8 months ago

Also, these industrial monitors have better heat sinking from the LED backlight, which increases power efficiency and service life – the two metrics their intended buyers care most about.

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[-] Creat@discuss.tchncs.de 20 points 8 months ago

I have solved this by not buying a TV in the last two decades. I just own projectors. Larger screen, cheaper, no "smart" nonsense. Depending on mounting, essentially invisible when not in use and not a large black rectangle in your living room. Do recommend.

[-] insurgenRat@beehaw.org 14 points 8 months ago

How dark do rooms need to be for them to work? Are there issues with shared spaces where someone might want a well lit workspace?

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[-] AngrilyEatingMuffins@kbin.social 17 points 8 months ago

I just run an HDMI from my computer…

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[-] Skimmer@lemmy.zip 14 points 8 months ago

Yep, they're horrible. I always disable internet on them, uninstall any apps I can, and generally do what I can to avoid using the built-in smart TV, but I shouldn't have to do this, its unfortunate and sucks to deal with. They just take advantage of consumers who don't know better, wish the TV market wasn't like this. :/

[-] timkenhan@sopuli.xyz 13 points 8 months ago

I'll probably need to buy a new TV in a year or two. I read there are some ways to flash custom firmware on it.

[-] d3Xt3r@beehaw.org 12 points 8 months ago

Just get a monitor. The only real difference between a monitor and a TV these says is the lack of a speaker, and "smart" stuff. But TV speakers suck anyways so you'd be better off using a soundbar regardless.

[-] Grippler@feddit.dk 10 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

I haven't seen >40" monitors at a reasonable price though compared to TVs

Edit: also, there's usually not any audio output to an amplifier on monitors.

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[-] furrowsofar@beehaw.org 11 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

Just wanted to say same. I have used a Linux box as my Media Center and Home Server since 2008. Also have a chomecast dongle so I can steam from Android and Android apps. Not sure what else one needs.

Seems to me what one wants wants really is mostly a browser and ability to stream stuff from apps on your phone. Since the Linux box is a Media Center and Server it also has a lot of features a Smart TV would not have. Just do not see the value of a Smart TV.

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[-] Aetherion@feddit.de 11 points 8 months ago

Pro Tip: Buy a Computer Monitor e.g. 4k 34 inch

they don’t have any smart tv shit, but you need to buy some extra for the audio

[-] irasponsible@beehaw.org 10 points 8 months ago

that's a lot more money for a smaller screen, though. 32" is a big monitor sitting in front of a desk, but a small TV if you're on a couch.

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[-] SnowdenHeroOfOurTime@unilem.org 10 points 8 months ago

Actually I think a lot of people do upgrade their TVs somewhat often, as stupid as that is. I will be clinging to my dumb TV for dear life as long as possible, but I feel like people are very consumerist these days. TVs have gotten cheap enough that they feel able to.

It goes without saying that no one should have to buy a new TV because there is a bunch of trashy software on it, but I'm sure it's already happened enough to incentivise these assholes' bad behavior

[-] theangriestbird@beehaw.org 9 points 8 months ago

the smartshitification of TVs is annoying, and i too hate being tracked by every device i use. That said, the incredible value of these TVs can't be overstated. Most people can't or won't spend more than $500 on a TV, so most people would still be using 1080p displays if it wasn't for this phenomenon, but now EVERYONE gets to have a 4k TV because the price is partially subsidized by all those ads you're seeing.

I think it's probably a net negative for society overall, but just wanted to point out that there is an upside to all those ads.

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[-] Frederic@beehaw.org 8 points 8 months ago

As a lot of people here, I did the same, bought the smart TV, it needed internet for firmware upgrade, and once it had started and did not ask for my inputs or whatever, I selected the HDMI1 as startup, plugged a Chromecast. Then went into the TV menu to forget the network settings on the TV. It's just a monitor used to cast Netflix, Disney, Plex, Prime, etc.