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[-] archomrade@midwest.social 94 points 3 months ago

For those in here that take offense to this distinction:

2 party political systems function to collapse diverse political perspectives into one of two camps and normalize an 'average' view for both parties. Leftists take issue with this collapse because it erases dissenting views within each party in service of defeating an 'other' at the expense of pursuing our real political goals.

The label matters to those of us who want to make the point that the US democratic party does not really represent our interests; at-best they represent a less-objectionable flavor of the same ideological framework, but one that needs to be dismantled all the same.

"Stop trying to divide us!" is a refrain spoken by those who are better served by the party than we are.

Put another way: "We are not the same"

[-] DragonTypeWyvern@midwest.social 25 points 3 months ago

I think the current best demonstration on this is how hard people are pushing Mark Kelly as VP.

They push a center-right president onto the stage and then dangle another "centrist" to try and, what? Appeal to Never Trumper Republicans? Racists?

How about you offer actual progressives some goddamn enticement for once and offer it to Jamaal Bowman, who the Dems primaried in favor of a genocidal AIPAC stooge?

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[-] seahorse@midwest.social 8 points 3 months ago

Very well put

[-] GBU_28@lemm.ee 31 points 3 months ago

Meh, though the meme is true, most Americans would say liberals are EVERYONE left of center, and conservatives are EVERYONE right of center.

[-] Angry_Autist@lemmy.world 18 points 3 months ago

What most Americans think of as 'center' is way fucking right compared to most of the world.

Here Bernie Sanders is a radically dangerous communist.

In other parts of the world he is just considered a bit progressive.

[-] DancingBear@midwest.social 13 points 3 months ago

Bernie is barely left of center on the world stage

[-] VelvetStorm@lemmy.world 9 points 3 months ago

The center is now also conservative, unfortunately.

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[-] Blackmist@feddit.uk 27 points 3 months ago

Using neo-liberals to define liberals is like using national socialism to define socialism.

It's authoritarian propaganda.

[-] seahorse@midwest.social 7 points 3 months ago

Libs and leftists are different

[-] Blackmist@feddit.uk 5 points 3 months ago

Sure, but liberals are still left wing, and saying they're not is just making enemies out of other left wingers, with is a long standing left tradition.

You'd all get so much further if you recognised allies in one area don't have to be allies in all areas. You can all have your own opinions and work together where it suits you towards set goals, rather than name calling, "no true Scotsman"-ing and in fighting. It honestly feels like the right have infiltrated the left at times, and just turned them on each other.

[-] SkunkWorkz@lemmy.world 7 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

In what world are liberals left wing? Here in Europe liberals are all considered centrists. Even the ones that are for the well-fare state.

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[-] Revan343@lemmy.ca 7 points 3 months ago

I've never met a liberal who was left of center

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[-] theoretiker@discuss.tchncs.de 27 points 3 months ago

When you have only two parties you can only have one dimension.

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[-] axont@hexbear.net 24 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

I think at this point the average American conflates "liberal" with simply an attitude on how much you hate or don't hate queer people, regardless of any other political sentiment. One time a chud told me the only real political issue is abortion.

us americans are not, to put it lightly, an intellectual country

[-] MaeBorowski@hexbear.net 16 points 3 months ago

I mentioned this anecdote in another thread a couple weeks ago, but I think it fits here too:

It's not even just chuds ime, it's the majority of the US population that thinks the "further left" something or someone is, the more "liberal" it is. Even many liberals think this.

A while back I told someone (an acquaintance I met irl) that I considered myself a communist and their response to me was:

"I'm pretty liberal myself, but communism is too liberal even for me."

There were several other people present and none of them thought this was a strange thing to say. blob-no-thoughts

[-] ZombiFrancis@sh.itjust.works 8 points 3 months ago

It may in part have something to do with how only American liberal spaces allow for anyone to say they're a communist without severe social and professional ramifications.

[-] sparkle@lemm.ee 10 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

Can't say I've experienced this. According to American liberals I've talked with, communism is just about synonymous with fascism. No way I could mention that I'm a socialist, that's like an insult towards liberals here. But I also live in Georgia where they ran ads about "radical socialist anti-israel anti-American Fidel Castro supporting communist Raphael Warnock" for the entire election, and that was supposed to scare us, so... maybe there's the reason. Yes the ads were by the Heritage Foundation

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[-] Rai@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 3 months ago

At this point, I honestly don’t know what “liberal” actually means. I don’t even know how to ask/find out. When I was growing up, I always thought it was good.

Now I don’t even know what “good” is, other than not being racist or anti-LGBTQ+.

[-] DragonTypeWyvern@midwest.social 6 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

When a conservative says liberal, it just means Democrat.

When someone with a vague clue says it?

Liberalism is a political ideology that holds that the primary role of government is to protect the rights of its citizens.

What those rights are, and who the liberals consider to be worthy of protection vary but as a general rule the right to private property, some form of democratic representation, due process with at least a gesture to equality before the law, freedom of religion and expression tend to be core rights.

Historically liberalism is deeply invested in capitalist and humanist thought. You could probably argue that liberalism isn't strictly required to be capitalist but quite frankly it's unlikely that will change before humanity is at the point of free energy and absolute post scarcity productivity.

The founding nations of liberalism are, roughly, America, France, and the UK and it's Commonwealth. If you want a intuitive understanding of what liberalism is in practice and reality, just think of their history in the past two centuries or so and the struggles of governance they have undergone.

Those aren't the only form of liberalism however. Social Democracy (the so called Scandinavian model) is a form of liberalism, neoconservatism (GW Bush, Romney) is liberalism (in theory), etc. Even "right wing" libertarianism is ultimately a form of liberalism, no matter how much that upsets the ones that don't know what words mean.

Anyways, political parties that officially call themselves Liberal tend to be fairly conservative by modern standards. It is a uniquely American degeneracy sponsored by Reagan that sought to call progressives liberals.

One might note that you can broadly characterize the defining ideologies of the past century into three broad categories.

Liberalism, Socialism, Fascism.

When a supposed ideological liberal like Reagan and his successors, modern conservatives say no, actually, I hate liberals and I REALLY hate socialists you should believe what they tell you, and consider what that makes them.

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[-] Sabre363@sh.itjust.works 23 points 3 months ago

Do these labels really have any benefit or value in society, or are they just yet another lame excuse for us all to hate on a group of 'others'

[-] Imacat@lemmy.dbzer0.com 13 points 3 months ago

They referred to specific ideologies and economic and social policies before the modern corporate propaganda machine really started in the 80s. Pretty sure they’re meaningless to most Americans these days.

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[-] vzq@lemmy.blahaj.zone 18 points 3 months ago

TBF there are about seven mutually exclusive definitions of “liberal” in each country.

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[-] UmeU@lemmy.world 17 points 3 months ago

.ml has entered the chat

[-] Maggoty@lemmy.world 8 points 3 months ago

Americans are actually taught in school that the entire American political spectrum is inside liberalism.

They then immediately forget that anyway and fall into the conservative/liberal false paradigm.

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[-] Birbatron@slrpnk.net 7 points 3 months ago

The thing I love about lemmy is instead of neoliberals and weird racists silencing Leftists like reddit, it's Leftists and Social democrats constantly at each other's throats.

The latter is much more amusing

[-] eldavi@lemmy.ml 9 points 3 months ago

The latter is much more amusing

same here; but likely for different reasons.

i like learning about viewpoints that differ from mine; i think they help me question my own beliefs and, usually, it re-enforces them.

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this post was submitted on 04 Aug 2024
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