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xkcd #2948: Electric vs Gas
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this post was submitted on 19 Jun 2024
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The price. The price is the problem for all us poors.
It wouldn't be so bad if they paired small batteries with backup generators.
But nooo, its 7000lb all electrics or overly complicated ICE-hybrids, nothing in between.
Wait how is what you're proposing different from ICE hybrids?
An ICE hybrid is a gas car with a little electric motor shoehorned inside.
A "plug in" hybrid as they are called is a full electric drivetrain, with a gas generator like you'd buy at Lowes stuck in the boot .
It seems trivial, but the difference is massive. The former is super complicated, heavy, and expensive, as you need all the junk a gas car needs and the electric stuff to go with it.
The later is hilarously efficient. It takes the best part of electric cars, the dead simple drive train, and solves their achilles heel: the massive battery. You can get away with a dirt cheap 3 horsepower generator in such a setup and shrink the battery massively, whereas a ICE hybrid needs a huge car engine and (like I said) all the expensive junk that goes with it.
You don't see more of the later because:
Car manufacturers are geared to produce ICE cars, and reserve the electric drivetrain capacitry for profitable luxury vehicles first.
This is just speculation on my part, but a gas range extending generator "taints" a full electric car, making it unpalatable to people who think it ruins the image, eco friendliness or whatever, when it's actually better for the environment because the battery isn't so freaking big.
Gotcha, thanks for explaining!
Of course!
Another point I was getting as is that pure electric cars suffer from the same problem space rockets do: most of their weight is fuel.
Hence they are heavy, need a lot of raw material and manufacturing. Read: Expensive and bad for the environment, compared to a cheaper plug in hybrid.
And a tiny, 5 horsepower gasoline generator is hilarously efficient compared to a car engine. And dirt cheap, and weighs virtually nothing. There are technical reasons for this, but basically it's not even in the same league, and produces a fraction of the emissions as a full ICE car.
Maybe truth is they started talking about doing a car like that and by the time it was ready for production they ended up with a regular ICE car because they nearly doubled the HP of the generator every time the design got reviewed like you are doing now. Before long it will be a tiny 98 HP generator…
You really don't need 90hp. Coasting on the freeway takes less than 10hp, depending on how big of a block you drive, so as long as the average is around that, the generator can keep the battery charged forever, and the battery handles any surge in power you need. It's only a problem if you drive like a jerk, and floor it out of every light or speed down the highway at 100+mph, and do it long enough to drain the battery.
But the brilliant part is that you can design the generator motor for single, constant RPM. I can't emphasize how much easier and more efficient that makes everything, vs. having to engineer a huge power/rpm range that can handle a dynamic load.
No I’m with you and have always kind of wished that’s the direction more EVs would have gone. I have a minivan for all the shit going on with kids and I love it but I have to drive six hundred miles half a dozen times a year so they can visit their mom. A higher range EV that I can refill with gas would be a game changer. Instead I got an electric golf cart that is street legal I use for the majority of my local commuting so I only drive the minivan a few times a week. I was really just being a turd because your first comment said 3 HP and the next one said 5 HP.
They were a fantastic idea but:
I suppose they’re still right for some people but generally it’s just Toyota looking back to do what they should have been doing ten years ago
I disagree. I have folks who are relatively well off, but can't get an EV due to range anxiety.
And again, a tiny engine running constantly is still massively efficient if it's done right.
This idea overlaps the big truck mentality: most EVs are much lighter. The weight penalty averages only about 20% over an equivalent ICE, so the type of vehicle you get can be a much bigger impact. My EV is a mid sized SUV that may be the biggest car I’ve ever owned and it weighs 4,000 lbs. I’m not claiming it’s light, but it’s much better than you seem to think
Yeah that was a hyperbole.
Still, there is a weight penalty depending on how much range they try to squeeze in.
And I'm one of those people that gets super salty about ICE cars getting so heavy too, especially crossovers and city SUVs that everyone seems to run now. A small or mid sized SUV should not be 4,000lb with modern tech, ICE or not.
the price gap is slowly closing, esp if you take into account total cost of ownership. It agree that the upfront cost makes it out of reach for many people.
Really the biggest part of the price gap now seems to be volume. Not enough new cars to offset the R&D and bring prices down. Not enough new cars for there to be a healthy used car market. And especially not enough non-premium cars
The barrier in my Canadian city isn't even purchase price, it's that I cannot charge at my apartment
Its still very much a barrier for most of us poors
Yeah I get it
But what im trying to say is that you can get an EV for like 20k cad, but charging requires home ownership (1.1m average in this shithole country)
Ahhhhhh sorry i misunderstood. I stand corrected
Hybrids are more affordable than full electrics, and have some of the benefits.... I have a Kia Sorento and its torque was enough to climb out of a pretty deep rut that would have required shifting into low4 on my dad's 4x4... Plus it gets about 600 miles on a tank.
I'm with you that we need phev's to bridge the infrastructure gap, but electric motors provide more torque at lower speeds without the need for gears.
Yes, and hybrids have that advantage too, that's the point I was trying to get across...
Purchase price, higher maintenance costs (EVs eat tires due to the increased weight and higher torque), installation of charging infrastructure (some us need expense electrical service upgrades and added wiring; we don’t all have 200 amp panels and garages with 30 amp 240v service already wired in)
I’d love an EV, but I won’t be afforded Int one for a bit. And used ones, even if cheaper, will have massive battery degradation cutting range way down.
I always heard the concern about electrical service but wonder at the reality. A level 2 charger is the same as a stove circuit: do none of you have electric stoves? You don’t even need that: some people are fine with just an extension cord, some people need a “dryer outlet”, I have never come close to needing the level 2 charger: is it really important that my EV charges in a couple hours vs by morning?
Also, hasn’t 200a service been standard for new homes for a couple decades? If someone can afford an EV, they are much more likely to have a newer home so already have 200a service
Nope. Everything is gas. Range, water heater, dryer, and heat. The only 2 pole breaker I have is for central AC.
My house was built in the 1940s. 200 amp service didn’t become standard until the 80s.
I know level 1 charging is there (although I also only have one exterior outlet), ~3 miles per hour of charging is tight. I need to be plugged in at least 10 hours for just my commute.
And, yeah, you hit on the big problem. EVs are expensive and are only really accessible to those already at the upper end of the spectrum. Belief that gas engines are more powerful or have more instant torque is not what is keeping people from EVs, so the point Randall makes is pretty stupid.
Same here. House built in 1946, gas everything.
But I had a lucky start in a previous owner upgrading to 200a service …. Maybe to install central air? When I moved in, I got all gas appliances, but 20 years later, everything is coming up for replacement. Times have changed. Technology is changing. Our understanding of our impact on the environment is changing.
The timing is perfect.
My furnace and AC are past their life expectancy and there are huge rebates on heat pumps ….